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Who Dey Revolution Manifesto

  • Preamble

    IN THIS TIME of perpetual Cincinnati Bengals incompetence and futility, with zero playoff wins in the nineteen seasons since the WhoDeyRevolution Godfather, Paul Brown, passed away in 1991 and handed the team to his fortunate son, the Despot, Mike Brown;


    WE, the members of the Who Dey Revolution, in our fervent dedication to the Cincinnati Bengals and fanatical desire to transform our hometown team into perpetual Super Bowl contenders, call for a popular revolution of fans to demand comprehensive reform to the managerial decisions and approach of Cincinnati Bengals ownership, management, staff and players, and hereby call for the adoption of the following Who Dey Revolution Manifesto:

    Manifesto Demands

    THAT the Mike Brown, Katie Blackburn, Marvin Lewis, along with every other member of the Bengals management, staff and personnel, state publicly to all Bengals fans, “I will do everything in my power to help the Cincinnati Bengals win a Super Bowl;”

    THAT Mike Brown will hire a general manager, drastically expand the scouting department and relinquish all control of player personnel;

    THAT all training, rehabilitation and medical facilities are considered best-in-class compared to other NFL teams;

    THAT the management fill the team only with players who fit the system, both mentally and physically, and are not reluctant to makes changes to player personnel when needed, regardless of cost or loyalty concerns;

    THAT offensive and defensive line depth is considered the top priority for all player personnel decisions;

    THAT all decisions made by ownership, management, staff and players, both on and off the field, are judged only by this criterion: “Does this help the Cincinnati Bengals win a Super Bowl?”

Inaugural Post

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« Matt Jones Signing a Year in the Making | Main | What I'd Do With The Uncapped Year »

February 16, 2010


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Where is that genius the "TRUTH" now, who said that a scouting department wasn't important. Another brilliant move by an organization trying to fail.

Is anyone really surprised here? I mean, really, we are talking MFB and his Clan! MFB wants to try and find another lucky golden nugget like he did with Benson on the Cheap. It is the only way to go with MFB. They are even talking about re-signing Shank! LOL That is all you need to know.

@Neutered Bengal

"Where is that genius the "TRUTH" now, who said that a scouting department wasn't important. Another brilliant move by an organization trying to fail."

LMAO!!! I learned my lesson a week ago trying to deal with the Ignorance that was 'TRUTH' and as the off-season has started to unfold: ACTIONS SPEAK MUCH LOUDER THAN WORDS as all of us realists know!

Really you are going to call me out to respond to an insignificant signing? If they make him the #2 at the beginning of the season i'll buy your pitchforks. This signing is more of a flyer than anything else. Really who cares about Matt Jones, i sure don't. I don't think this says anything about the "scouting department" since they should be more concerned about the upcoming draft than some $700K whim.

The good news is that wide receivers, tight ends, backs that can catch are all in the past. It's a new playbook baby and it's all about the run, left, right, up the middle, run, run, run the ball. I am so excited 6, 9, 10, maybe as much 17 points a game can be scored.

Lets face it MFB went with Matt Jones because he is 6.6 and allows for possible play at tight end and defensive end too, right?

Really if i wanted to be an ass i can point out that the "scouts" did their job and pointed out that Jones stinks it was MB who made the call. So an argument could be made that we could have a great scout department but one that is handcuffed by MB.
I'm just saying.

2 Seperate Bengals sources said he looked better than Jerry Rice in his prime and that with Matt Jones, the Bengals are a lock for AFC Champions in 2010. . . .

Really - we are talking about what someone who knows a friend who has a Bengals Source said? Really? Wow



1. Jim Lippincott Director of Football Operations (Former Athletic Director in Cincy)
2. Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel (Father to Bill Tobin friend of Mikey)
3. Greg Seamon Scout
4. Earl Biederman Scout (Friendly old man retired who resides in Ravenna, Ohio)
5. John Cooper Scout (former OSU coach)
6.Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants (Son to Duke Tobin friend of Mikey
7.Debbie LaRocco Personnel Assistant (not really a scout, im sure)

1. Mickey Loomis Executive Vice President/General Manager
2. Khai Harley Director of Football Administration
3. James Nagaoka Director of Operations
4. Debbie Gallagher Executive Assistant to the EVP/General Manager
5. Ryan Pace Director of Pro Scouting
6. Rick Reiprish Director of College Scouting
7. Brian Adams Assistant Director of College Scouting
8. Terry Fontenot Pro Scout
9. Ryan Powell Pro Scout
10. Mike Baugh Area Scout
11. Dwaune Jones Area Scout
12.Josh Lucas Area Scout
13. Jim Monos Area Scout
14. Mike Neu Area Scout
15. Terry Wooden Area Scout
16. Ryan Hollern Combine Scout
17 Jason Mitchell College Scouting Coordinator
18 Joey Laine Salary Cap Analyst/Player Personnel
19 Danny Callahan IT/Applications Development Manager
20 Joey Vitt, Jr. Scouting Assistant


Who is this guy scouting?

19 Danny Callahan IT/Applications Development Manager

You guys should be honorary scouts. See while you rip the Bengals for EVERY decision they make you never look back at how dumb you look when you are wrong. And yes, you have been wrong. Remember this quote:

"The Bengals remember this guy sucked, right? And his teammates hated him. We all know these things, right guys? We called ONE person before we made this move...RIGHT???"

Yeah, that was after they signed Cedric. Now one of your demands is to lock him up long term.

Or this one:

@ Jordan

And how many of the players that the scouts of the Saints help to draft ended up on the Pro-Bowl team this year, their superbowl year?? Two

They also had misses (Stallworth) and diamonds in the rough (Colston, speaking of which didn't the crappy Bengals scouts pull off something simlar with TJ???)

I do have to agree with Whodeyfans, countless times on here people moan and complain about someone the bengals draft only to kiss their ass 6 months later and pretend they never complained.

I guess what i say that pisses Jordan off is that just adding scouts to the Bengals roster doesn't equal automatic success. Hell where i work there is one department that has 3 people who are inefficient doing a job that one skilled person could do by themselves in half the time. Do i think the Bengals have the best scouting department? No, but i also don't think they have the worst. If they did then why does it seem like ever year around this time someone like Jordan is complaining that we are letting a guy we drafted walk via FA????

Back to the article, if I may...poster MayorQuimby on Reedy's blog made a good point: without an indoor practice facility, where did Jones (and Jones) work out? In the snow? Or did they go to Mason?


First off, tell me and find examples where I have complained about such circumstances. Those two links that were posted by WhoDeyFans have not one comment that I posted at that time. I am a die-hard Bengal's fan through and through and the only thing I have complained about are the same issues that this site was created for.

Secondly, the point I was trying to make with the scouts is that the Bengals really dont have any scouts at all. They have friends of the Brown Family. Also, because the Bengals dont have 'real' scouts it entitles the coaching staff to do additional scouting work during the season and off-season. the major question remains: If the Bengals had a GM and a larger more efficient and effective scouting department would their Coaches be better off and be able to focus solely on their job responsibilities? or do you think that the Bengals are currently in the best position possible to bring a championship to the city of Cincinnati? Thats where Im going with all this...

@ Truth

I count at least 13 players names that I recognize on the link that you posted who were on the Saints roster this year!

Finally, It has more to do than one F'n Draft one time during the year! Scouting involves countless hours of scouting college athletes during their season and scouting NFL players during the off-season and during the season so the teams are capable of signing and bringing in a player to replace an injured player while the season is in progress. Open your eyes dude. and again I ask you why do you even bother reading this sites' content and opinions if disagree with the sites premise as whole? The point of the WDR is to attempt to make the Brown family take the necessary steps to bringing a championship to the city and creating a successful franchise for many years to come?! Do you have a problem with that?

jordan, where did i say you complained about "such circumstances"? I was agreeing with Whodeyfans, not talking about you. Paranoid much lol. Anyway I never said the Bengals scouting staff was perfect. Plus we don't work in the NFL so how do we know that coaches don't want to be involved in the scouting process?

I'm not against everything this site stands for, I'm just against people who complain to complain and don't know what they are talking about (no Jordan not directed at you paranoid boy).

An example, people who say the Bengals suck because they don't sign Julius Peppers and Kevin Williams to back up Sims and Peko.


I understand your points and comments; however, dont think Im paranoid (which is a ridiculous assumption), when your initial message was directed at me. Sure Im gonna assume your talkin smack about me, when your message begins with (@Jordan)

Regardless of our opinions there is one thing that we can both agree on and that is: most Bengals fans are tired of losing and want to make winning a trend year after year. 2 winning seasons in 19 years with no playoff wins just doesnt cut it!

Holy shit, are you guys serious with the bitching back and forth? The last 3-4 times I've come to this site, all anyone is doing is msg board bickering. (I even got into it as well a couple times out of frustration over THIS franchise, which is why ALL of us are here in the first fucking place)

This is turning into a 'Twilight' fan board of girls, moaning and crying.

Number of scouts, signings, draft picks, etc...who cares.

We all know Mike Brown is a joke. If they re-sign Graham though, I might be done with this team.


Who gives a flying F*ck if we choose to bicker back and forth on this website?!?. Just like you said we do it out of frustration and considering this is a website created to display Bengals fans displeasure of the organization, I think we should be allowed to bitch as much as we want! Good Day to you!


I rest my case.

and, I remember when most comments (most) were humorous ways of venting frustration. Now, guys are just attacking each other.

Take a shit or something dude, you seem very angry.


Hell yeah Im angry and frustrated probably just as much as Jordan and the other fans who comment on these posts! and regardless of what you or other people say, we as Bengals fans understand one another's frustrations!

I think Jordan mentioned in an earlier post: 2 winning seasons in 19 years and no playoff wins isnt acceptable!
Look at it this way: Joe Flacco has played 2 full seasons and has more playoff wins than the Bengals have playoff appearances in 19 years!
Mark Sanchez has more playoff wins in 1 year than the Bengals do in 19 years!

@BengalsComplainer may want to look at some of my posts in the past on this site. don't spout off inept Bengals stats to me. please.

i've just found more comments are attacks back and forth lately, which is exactly what you and i are doing now, which is why i'll stop.

(but seriously, you seem really angry. in general, at life. go for a walk or jerk off) ((and as much as I hate MFB, and how bad this franchise's JUST football))


Thanks for the unneccesary remarks, but you are right its just football so Ill get back to work. Would be nice to see a winning team on the field year after year though, but oh well!
FYI im far from angry, just frustrated. We should all be allowed to say whatever we want.

Ill get back to enjoying life in Chicago! Have a good day! God Bless!

stallworth signs with the ravens - how will this play with the bitter betzles on this site? a lot of pillow biters out there moaning about how the bengals were probably gonna grab this guy. now that he's with a tough division rival, will it be, "the bengals screwed the pooch again"? could have been a cheap possible fill for the slot. now let's see if he gets 8 catches for 98 against us in a game this year.

Are you guys seriously having a hissy fit over this?This was actually a good move Rtards He's a Low Risk High Reward deal...we PAYED HIM THE VET MINIMUM If he gets in trouble? Cut He Still shows During Preseason Cut? He actually has some of what he did in 2008? Wow you just got a huge talent for next to nothing.


you were right...

Matt Jones to play tight end?

The Bengals plan to use their newest addition — wide receiver Matt Jones — not as a wideout, but as a tight end, according to in-house NFL guru Carlos “Big C” Holmes.

Sources tell Big C that the Bengals like Jones’ size (6-6, 220), even though he comes in about 30 pounds lighter than your average tight end. Former Bengal tight end Ben Utecht was considered a pass-catching tight end and appeared small despite his 6-6, 245-pound frame.



is that you MFB? With proven Free Agent WRs about to be available in March, why even attempt to go after a guy that nobody wants? What for? This is a typical MFB move. He is looking for his second golden nugget. You know he found one in the past 19 years and he thinks he is on a roll.

Now the real story comes out, he is trying to convert him into becoming that great TE he has never been able to get or even want. What a joke! I have MFB's HBO Hard Knocks statement ringing in my ears about converting Harrington DE into his next great TE that he so covets. Stupidity at its finest hour!

Tiger J@w:

Any 'Gloid who writes for a newspaper in freaking Dayton and calls himself "Big C" in his articles, loses all credibility. Forgive me if I take zero stock in what he says about moving MJ to TE. They'll draft one, keep either Foschi or Reggie Kelly and use Coffman. Write it down.

my link was screwed up, here is a better one for Big C...


this guy has sources, he has written for the Dayton paper for 11 years.

Just a couple of thoughts here:

WhoDeyFans said "You guys should be honorary scouts. See while you rip the Bengals for EVERY decision they make you never look back at how dumb you look when you are wrong. And yes, you have been wrong"

I make it a point to do entire posts where I revisit shit I have written to see how horribly wrong I usually am. See here for an example, though there are many:

Also, WhoDeyRans points out Showtime wrote "The Bengals remember this guy sucked, right? And his teammates hated him. We all know these things, right guys? We called ONE person before we made this move...RIGHT???" about the Cedric Benson signing. Showtime looks dumb in retrospect but at the time was that really an unfair thing to write? I say no, though clearly he is using sarcasm to exaggerate the point.

It's only fair to evaluate something ex ante (i.e., at the time) not ex post (i.e., with hindsight). The Benson signing is nothing more than Mikey taking a chance on a character issue guy with talent cause he can get it at a discount. Sometimes they work out but that is no reason to say Showtime was wrong with that call.

Last, once and for all, none of us here at WDR are professionals obviously. We try to form opinions as intelligently as possible given limited time, resources and experience. It's just really annoying to qualify every personnel comment we make with a disclaimer that we are not professionals. I would hope that is understood by now.

That said, given the Bengals track record, I see no reason to think that collectively we could not manage the draft, player personnel and salary cap decisions better than the Bengals front office has in the past (not to mention public relations and marketing). In fact, a class of 5th graders might be able to.


The articles were examples of gut reactions at the time that were wrong looking back. The same case could be made for the Matt Jones and Andre Smith signings in the next 2-3 years. My point was only that there are 2 ways to look at things, and the commenters here are so quick to make every last Bengal move the worst one.

I remember your mea culpa article. I enjoyed it as well as most other things you push out. It is the comments that drive me mad mostly.

My $.02:

I love this site, its message, and what it stands for in general. I enjoy 90% or more of what is posted on here, but I, like TJanns, tire of the senseless bickering and name-calling that seems to happen pretty frequently around these parts.

My advice to the site admins/writers/whatever?

Get off your dead asses and get some Project Mayhem goodness percolating! No offense meant, but damn - nothing since the first couple days of training camp last year? In light of a winning regular season and an unsuccessful playoff run, I'm sure the Powers that Be in Bengaldom (aka, the Family) are taking our silence as an indication that all is well with their fanbase. Not only that, but PM tasks give frequent visitors to this site something to rally around instead of bickering amongst one another.

It's sad to see that nobody has recognized the South Park reference in the title of the article.

The next project mayhem action should be a poster or billboard that says this:


1. Jim Lippincott Director of Football Operations (Former Athletic Director in Cincy)
2. Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel (Father to Bill Tobin friend of Mikey)
3. Greg Seamon Scout
4. Earl Biederman Scout (Friendly old man retired who resides in Ravenna, Ohio)
5. John Cooper Scout (former OSU coach)
6.Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants (Son to Duke Tobin friend of Mikey
7.Debbie LaRocco Personnel Assistant (not really a scout, im sure)

1. Mickey Loomis Executive Vice President/General Manager
2. Khai Harley Director of Football Administration
3. James Nagaoka Director of Operations
4. Debbie Gallagher Executive Assistant to the EVP/General Manager
5. Ryan Pace Director of Pro Scouting
6. Rick Reiprish Director of College Scouting
7. Brian Adams Assistant Director of College Scouting
8. Terry Fontenot Pro Scout
9. Ryan Powell Pro Scout
10. Mike Baugh Area Scout
11. Dwaune Jones Area Scout
12.Josh Lucas Area Scout
13. Jim Monos Area Scout
14. Mike Neu Area Scout
15. Terry Wooden Area Scout
16. Ryan Hollern Combine Scout
17 Jason Mitchell College Scouting Coordinator
18 Joey Laine Salary Cap Analyst/Player Personnel
19 Danny Callahan IT/Applications Development Manager
20 Joey Vitt, Jr. Scouting Assistant "

How about a "what should the Bengals have to do this offseason" post? Within the bounds of reason though (ie they can't get Austin, Marshall, and Boldin, but one or two would be realistic)

Obviously a fast WR is a must. If Dallas is stupid enough to not get Austin signed long term any team needing a WR in their right mind will give up a 1 and 3 for him.

They also have to address the depth at safety. I like Crocker but he is no Harper from NO.

@ FeedMikeBrownToAquaBengal and Jordan:

That scouting dept. comparison should be posted

at Denny's and/or Frisch's in the form of a pie chart


South Park reference in the title? How about the main argument of the post? The step breakdown is an expanded and modified version of the Underpants Gnomes' plan:

"1. Steal Underpants.
2. ???

Just because I didn't comment on it doesn't mean I didn't get it.


Great Idea. This is something that can be done for a low price too. Go to FedEx Office and make copies to hang up around PBS. Something straight forward and to the point.

But lets be sure to take off the IT guy i accidentally kept on under the Saints personnel haha

@ Hofbraunow

Well said, but we all know Frisch's has a strict no MikeyBoy policy due to the many incidents he was involved at the salad bar.


Jesus Christ, my post was in jest. Nobody called out YOU specifically for not knowing the article. And, if you did understand the reference, even better. Good God, you 'Gloids look for fights more than a group of 15-year old cheerleaders. Stop splitting hairs and start a project mayhem task, especially since very few of you seem to have a sense of freaking humor.

I guess we should have signed Stallworth instead... ....right we can't b/c he had a checkered past, killed someone, and that would destroy the team's positive PR campaign.

Damn, I can't imagine what wrath the Ravens comment boards has upon it right now:

Not one complaint...

That would not be the case in Cincinnati. Why the double standard?


Great point. See some will give you a line about "Well the Ravens front office blah blah blah"

The point is, commenters here are just miserable angry people. Look at how they continue to attack each other, constant flame war. Everyone trying to be the tough guy on the internet.

It used to be if you disagree they would freak out and attack. Now it seems all you have to do is write a comment and you will be attacked. Soon they will be fighting about who hates Mike Brown more.

It has become less about trying to get a message to the Bengals or push for change and more about who can write the nastiest comment about the latest Bengals move.


The obvious reasons for the different reactions would be to look at the past success of the teams and the track record of the management. The Ravens continually have good drafts and address team needs via free agency. They aren't afraid to pay players who help the team big money to stick around and keep helping the team. When they make the playoffs, their fans are surprised. etc.

Why the double standard in team management?


Maybe you're the one who needs to lighten up, as my post wasn't an attack by any means, just pointing out that I did "get it" and knew what you were talking about. At no point was I "looking for a fight", as you claimed. Also, I find your characterization of the people who frequent this site as "gloids" (which I would assume is short for mongoloid) to be both tasteless and off-base. In spite of the recent spat of in-fighting that's come from inactivity and general unhappiness with what is already starting to look like another off-season of bad personnel moves (I'm not saying it is, just saying it looks like it could be), the people here are generally, to paraphrase Yogi Bear, "smarter than the average Bengals fan". That's not an attempt to pat myself on the back, either, just an admission of fact. Actually, scratch that - I won't claim that we as a whole are smarter, perhaps "more discriminating" would be a better descriptor, as we hold this team and its management to a higher standard than the towel-burning WhoDeyNation mouthbreathers who are in their glory now that the Bengals had another cup of coffee with the NFL postseason. (Seriously, look up the WhoDeyNation guys on YouTube - they're everything that's wrong with not just the Bengals fanbase, but with any fanbase for any team in any sport. But, in their favor, they do seem to torment the SteelLegends douche from YouTube, so they have that going for them.)

For WhoDeyFans, theTruth, blester, et al:

Why is it so hard to understand that we want better for this team that we care so much about and have devoted so many hours of our lives to cheering for and following? Why is it a bad thing to demand some accountability from the front office for 20 years of almost-constant mismanagement? If you were developing products for a major company, and out of 20 projects you headed up, only 2 were moderately successful (say 8th-12th best selling in their category), do you think you'd really deserve a lucrative bonus each year, much less to even remain employed?


Sorry but that is the most retarded logic since Palin tried to defend Rush's use of the word retarded.

So it is ok for a team with good management to draft/ pick up players with shady backgrounds, but not our team- even if the move was to improve the team. Ironically what makes the good teams good is making moves like picking up players with baggage and getting them to produce (Randy Moss???). Dumb and hypocritical.

I bet you would love to have Brandon Marshall on this team (checkered past) or V. Jackson (off-field issues). Hate to break it to you, but Jesus doesn't play football. All of these players have some kind of issue or another. Hell the most beloved player in Cincinnati history lied, cheated and gambled on the games he was involved in; yet the most conservative people still want him to make it in the Hall.

Listen, I agree that Mike Brown needs to step away from the decision making process b/c he is a retard (satire so it is ok). I wouldn't visit this site regularly if I didn't think so. But I believe that the recent success the team is having is a reflection that he may be doing that. Last year's moves were just way too methodical/ logical to be Mike's. The move to get Leonard was brilliant. If Mike Brown were in charge last year, we would have selected the top RB available with our first pick- it would not have made sense at all. We would not have gotten a team need. Yes, we could have selected the lovable movie star instead of moobs, but if what I heard about the movie is true- Oher sounds like he is not the sharpest ax in the shed and therefore it was smart bet to stay away from him. They should have painfully learned that lesson from Simpson.

Sure maybe Mike is still bringing in pet projects- like Matt Jones, but FA has yet to start and people are acting as if everything this team did last year was just dumb luck. If you know the game, you know it takes more than luck to be successful at any level.

Hard to believe, but the Bengals actually have talent on their team, and a good amount of it was drafted. If they play their cards right they could actually be contenders- I know it's hard to believe, but it is true. Now whether they play their cards right or choke is another matter. I hope they don't choke and if Mike stays out of the of the decision making process- we could be in for a couple of surprises.

You couldn't be more right. Thanks for helping make the site fun.

Wyatt, Jordon, Neutered, etc.

I am speaking for myself on this on, but maybe my allies will agree. We are in favor of holding the front office accountable. The banner thing over the practice field last preseason was brilliant- whoever thought of that: kudos - it took a lot of balls or pot. I hope it was the latter, either way I hope you guys had a blast knowing that you got under Mike's skin- I know I enjoyed it.

However, people have to realize that the NFL, like horse racing, is an organization where the owners legally gamble their money. Lucky for them the NFL has socialist structures built into the organization so even if a team is bad for a number of years it can still be profitable due to revenue sharing, etc.. On the flip side, if you went all free market there would be no parity since the top markets could out spend other teams in FA like the 49ers & Cowboys did in the 90's. It would be the same teams over and over in the Super Bowl- like the Yankees, and pro football would suck. I prefer the balance the NFL has found so we get constant turnover of the top teams. The down side of this business model is that it provides Mike Brown a safe business model and allows him to win financially even if he makes terrible decisions on a repeated basis.

I have been a fan of this team since I can remember. I have a photo of Kenny Anderson carrying me off the field while I am holding his helmet (without stripes) after a training camp practice in Wilmington. My family was not affiliated with the organization in any way, we were just fans. It was experiences like these that hooked me with this team. For me it was never about their record; it was the experiences and I will never leave it- even if the relationship is abusive. I would rather have a crappy team run by Mike Brown, than not have a team at all.

However, I think we can all agree he needs to be accountable for the failures and repeated mistakes he has made in running this organization since he took over. The only way to do that is put it in his face and make him uneasy to the point he eventually blinks. I don't believe anything else will work. It is sites like this one that can make a difference to help push the organization to continue moving in the right direction. Let's keep it up rather than bitching about stupid crap- picking up Matt Jones was not the end of the world. If you want to see what a terrible team looks like watch the 2002 highlight real on Hulu:
It was so bad, there were no highlights- they just talk about the upcoming 2003 season and its potential to change.

As I have stated repeatedly, I believe the recent successes (no back-to-back losing seasons since Marvin took over) indicate that he has questioned his role and has taken steps back from absolute control from the decision making process. I could be wrong, but I think change is a coming and we are headed in a good direction. Who Dey!

"This is turning into a 'Twilight' fan board of girls, moaning and crying."

@ TJanns: That made me snicker;
then it made me feel chastised
and ashamed of everyone here;
Then it made me snicker some more : )

Now, I don't often discuss here the 'ifs-and-buts' of the Bengals as a team, or the NFL in general,
but I do enjoy reading the posts here because obviously there are a few people that have their finger on the pulse of what's going on, and rather astutely so, as I read them.

I don't do a whole lot of research, but clearly there are people here who do, and I think it gives credence to both the Cause and to the WDR website.

With such passion comes emotion, yes, on par with a "Twilight fan board of girls, moaning and crying."

Not exactly a motivating or galvanizing phenomenon for the WDR, IMO, but amusing, funny, and at times informative nonetheless.



That was a lovely rebuttal to a point I never made or tried to argue. If I had said something like "it is ok for a team with good management to draft/ pick up players with shady backgrounds, but not our team- even if the move was to improve the team", your post would have nailed my ass to a tree. In fact in my post I never mentioned players past troubles or wanting them to be Jesus, who I think would be a really crappy football player anyway.

Let me break it down.

Here's you: "Why don't Ravens fans complain about them signing a player with a checker past?"

Here's me: "The Ravens front office has a history of making good moves and putting a winning team on the field, so their fans trust them. The Bengals fans have been sharted on for too long to trust anything MFB does."

Here's you: "That's horrible logic. Good teams can do it but bad teams can't, checker past, yadda yadda, blah blah."

Here's me: *blink blink*


If the Bengals would have signed Stallworth are you saying you would have been on board with that?

Checkered past and all?

Nope, you would have ripped Mike Brown. blester was only pointing out that it is not who the Bengals sign that matters. Any move is ripped on this site.

Wyatt, when you say that you "demand accountability", are a few seasons in which the Bengals made a lot of good moves (not perfect of course, but some good moves in there) and win the division a step in the right direction?

The football moves in the past 2-3 years are light years ahead of the old Bengals, most likely due to Marvin Lewis. Therefore, your (our) mission is working at least to some extent. Mike has opened his mind to other opinions (Marvin) which has resulted in player moves that are markedly different than the Bengals of old and are actually working. Credit where credit is due. Is it perfect? No. But I like the team's direction a hell of a lot more than I did in 2002, or 1997.

We all want them to win. The mission of the site is ultimately to bring about change that causes the realization of one ultmate goal: winning. Let's not loose site of the improvements just for the sake of thoughtlessly ripping everything the team does.

Perfectly stated. There are signs that change has/is happening within the organization, and sites like this one may have helped push that by putting Mike's record in his face. Do I think the change is enough? No, but they are headed in the right direction and we should commend them for this "progress" and not blast them for every little move that may make. At some point it just turns into white noise and makes itself insignificant.

I checked my facts, and I was incorrect. We did have consecutive losing seasons in '07 & '08. It seems like it has been forever since we have had consecutive losing seasons after having 12 non-winning seasons before Marvin arrived. After re-reading your post I see the point you were trying to make now that you put it in better context. I live in DC and there is just a different mindset with football out here. It is not that the fans expect a winning season b/c they have faith in management- it is that the fans have completely irrational expectations. Every year the Redskins or Ravens are going to the Super Bowl- regardless of how bad they actually suck on paper. I would take Mike Brown over Synder any day for an owner- that guy is a complete duech and has no idea what he is doing. It will be interesting to see what happens to Baltimore once their vaulted Defense goes geriatric- I think it will take several years for them to recover, and it is only a matter of time before it falls apart.

Since Marvin took over in 2003, the Bengals have won 56 games and are 0-2 in the playoffs. Baltimore in that same time period has won 63 games and are 3-4 in the playoffs. The fact that Marvin started with a 2-14 team in 2003 and the Ravens started out with a former championship team and there are only a difference of seven wins between the two is amazing. Yes, it would be great to have been 2-2 in the playoffs, but shit happens. Keep in mind that Marvin has had to rebuild this team from the ground up. I think he has done a great job of changing the culture of the team from a team that folds at the first sign of adversity to fighting like hell- that is very tough to do especially when it is so entrenched.

AFCNORTHCHAMPS and blester01,

Can you guys point me in the direction of these amazing changes? Last time I checked, signing TJ would've been a smarter move than going out and getting Coles, they franchised a mediocre (at best) kicker, hung onto a godawful long snapper for about three seasons too long, drafted a WR and a TE who can't find the field with a road map and a GPS, and they've started this offseason by working out the white Rick James and the most troubled player in the NFL over the past five years. Granted, they signed the lesser of two evils in White Rick James, but it's not a promising start to free agency, to say the least.

1. Signing Benson to a two year deal.
2. 2009 draft - may be one of their best drafts in recent history. 1) Moobs will be good; 2) Rey was a good fit; 3) MJ has tons of potential; 3) Coffman will see the field this year so he is not a bust yet; 4) Luigs may push at guard this year or he provides good depth at Center; 5) Huber upgraded this spot as a rookie- he should only improve; 6) Scott was a find; and 6) Trent provides good depth; 7) Vakapuna may push to start this year if he improves this offseason. To have that many players on the team contributing is a good draft. Received a Love It from SI.
3. 2008 draft - as a whole it was better than the ones in the 90's, but not as good as 2006 & 2009. 1) Rivers is top notch; 2) Simpson most likely is a bust; 3) Sims was a good pick; 3) Caldwell is a good contributor for a third round pick; and 4) Collins provides good depth. Received a love it from SI, but it could have been better had they not picked Simpson.
4. 2006 draft - Another great draft may be better than 2009. 1) Joseph- top 10 CB; 2) Whitworth- a top 10 LT; 3) Rucker- good DE depth; 4) Peko- top ten DT. (Bengals received a B- for this draft on SI, while the Cardinals received an A for picking the bust known as Matt Lienart)
5. Letting the cancer known as TJ leave was a good move- yes it hurt us on the field, but it was worth it to remove the distractions and his retarded banter.
6. Signing Matt Jones. If he sucks- cut him, if works out than it is a good move. No skin off their back.
7. Signing Peko to a long term deal.
8. Signing Geathers to a long term deal- yes his sack production is not fantastic (a lot of that has to deal with them not having a strong designated pass rusher), but he does his job very well.
9. Signing Odem in FA. Filled a need, but we need him healthy to be productive- it was really unfortunate that he got hurt. Lines were beginning to rotate to him, which would then help out Geathers. This is a good indication that he was a force and not just a fluke who got lucky by catching the Packers without their starting LT.

Yes, there have been some bad moves as well in the past couple of years (Kenny Irons). But overall this is a huge improvement to the 1990's. We will have a top 10 O-line this year. I know it wasn't great last year, but after another offseason together they should improve. They have the 3 key spots filled for several years: LT, C, & RT. They just need to upgrade the Guard spots. Don't be surprised if they take a G with one of their top two picks. They will have a top 10 Defense again this season, could be top 5 if they make some key additions at LB, S, DT, and add better CB depth. We'll see what they do in FA. There is not a lot on the market this year that can come in a instantly upgrade a spot. All the good WR's are restricted so they may not be an option. They may make moves to upgrade their depth like at CB, OL and LB.


First off, let me state that I appreciate tremendously the intelligent discourse and also apologize for not replying sooner. I didn't get in from travelling until late Sunday night and went to bed early last night as a result. I'm typing this response on my lunch break so bear with me if it doesn't make sense in parts as I tend to be distracted when my officemate asks me questions. In a nutshell, though, you seem to be seeing a lot more silver lining than me, which is cool, but I'll try to respond to your points as best I can with my opinions. I do thank you for providing me with your opinions, as it helps me to understand where you're coming from, which should facilitate future discussions. Anyway...

1. I, too, do agree that signing Benson to a two-year deal was a good move. Ideally, they'll keep signing him to short-term deals rather than giving him a huge extension after this season if he has another good year. The shorter deals keep him hungry and motivated to produce and prevent the team from ending up with another Corey Dillon on their hands.

2. I refuse to comment on the 2009 draft this soon after it happened. Conventional wisdom allows for three years to properly evaluate a draft and see how it properly shakes out. 2005's draft also looked like a walk-off home run (if I might mix my metaphors) after the 2005 season, although it didn't look nearly as promising after the 2008 season. But I will say "so far, so good" with respect to Rey, Huber, B. Scott, and M. Johnson. I will also say that Coffman is exactly what this team has needed since they drafted Palmer (A PASS-CATCHING TIGHT END TO GO WITH A MARQUEE QUARTERBACK? They only do that kind of stuff, stuff that makes sense, in cities like Indianapolis and San Diego!), although the OC is too stupid to realize it. And calling Luigs "good depth at center" is both baseless and irresponsible. The same was said about Ghiachuc when he was backing up Rich Braham - we see how that turned out. Let's just hope Kyle Cook (one of my personal favorite Bengals from 2009) stays healthy and we never have to find out.

3. Again, still need another year or two to evaluate the 2008 draft properly, but I'll say this: Rivers needs to prove he can play a full season without being hurt before I'd call him "top notch", Simpson IS a bust, Sims has been a solid pick up so far, Caldwell is no TJ, who was a seventh round pick, so calling Bubba "a good contributor for a third round pick" is definitely damning him with faint praise, and Collins should probably actually be the starting LT. Had they brought HippopotaSmith in on time and got him on the field from week 1 so that they didn't have to move their best OL from his best position (Whit at LG), I think the pass protection and run blocking both would've been improved.

4. Finally, a draft that can be fairly evaluated. Joseph is, without hyperbole, a top 3-4 corner if he stays healthy, Whit (as mentioned above) is a decent LT and a great LG, I'm a big fan of what Frostee can do when he's motivated (which doesn't seem to be often enough, hence why he's providing depth), and Peko was, arguably, the heart of the defense this past season and, imo, the main reason the Jets embarassed the Bengals in Week 17. He's definitely the best run stopper the Bengals have had since the 80s, and arguably the player we as Bengals fans have been waiting for since the Family drafted Dan Wilkinson. (Yeah, I went there.)

5. No proof that TJ was a cancer, and, even if he was, he was still able to take advantage of the double coverage Chad consistently drew and MAKE PLAYS, something Vern and Caldwell haven't shown they can do consistently yet.

6. I realize this makes me a hyprocrite, being as how I actually advocated the Larry Johnson signing a few months ago, but the circumstances were different there. Yes, both Matt Jones, aka White Rick James (WRJ from here on out), and LJ had their issues with the law, but that's where the similarities end. I've met Larry Johnson (I roomed with a former Penn State offensive lineman during LJ's rookie season and he came to visit during the bye week and spent the weekend at our apartment) and there's no questioning his love for football, whereas WRJ seems to love something else a little more than football. LJ was exceedingly unhappy in Kansas City dating back to his rookie season, when he felt he wasn't given enough of an opportunity to show his abilities, something that was seemingly reaffirmed this season when the Chiefs brought in Matt Cassel and decided to become a passing team. WRJ, on the other hand, seemed to be a little TOO happy in Jacksonville. Also, they signed Larry Johnson after a successful workout and only having missed two weeks of games/practices and left him at running back. With White Rick James, he'd been out of the league for over a full year, apparently had a terrible workout, and the talk is of converting him to TE. Answer me this - is Matt Jones a better blocker than Chase Coffman? If so, then why did they draft Coffman in the first place? Coffman's almost guaranteed to be a better route runner and have quicker cuts than Matt "Slo Mo" Jones, plus, logic would tell you that a tight end, no matter how bad a blocker he is, is still a better blocker than a wide receiver. This signing makes no sense on so many levels that it completely overshadows the only area where it does make sense, which is, as you pointed out, financially. Even so, I'd throw that $700k tied up in Jones at Joseph in an attempt to keep him around. UPDATE: Just went to the Bengals homepage to make sure I was spelling "Odom" right, and Marvin's glowing praise for Chase Coffman warms my heart. Let's hope it's legitimate.

7. Nothing bad to say about Peko, who is, by far, my favorite Bengal of this decade. I hope he retires a Bengal after a long and successful career.

8. I'm inclined to agree about Geathers, but I put the onus of why he's not more productive on Chuck "The Suck" Breshnahan. It's pretty clear that the one season he was moved to LB in 2007 completely killed his development as a pass rushing end, and now, two full seasons later, he still hasn't fully recovered. Hopefully the Odom double-teams will allow Geathers to resume his development and the Bengals can find themselves in a similar situation as the Colts, only with younger versions of Freeney and Mathis.

9. Completely agree with you assessment of signing Odom, and also with your caveat that he needs to stay healthy. See the end of my number 8 point for reasoning.

I would take serious umbrage at you mentioning Kenny Irons as the biggest personnel mistake in the past few years, especially in light of keeping Chris Perry for too long, keeping Shayne Graham for too long, keeping Brad St. Louis for too long, not preparing for Big Willie's eventual downturn, actually trying to pass Ghiachuc off as a serviceable replacement for Richie Braham (or as an NFL center period) - the list goes on and on. I'd still say that in the Marvin Lewis era, they've whiffed on more personnel decisions than they've hit home runs. Also, to say that they need to address a need at linebacker is foolish, as they've got four starter-caliber linebackers (D. Jones, K. Rivers, R. Maualuga, and B. Johnson) and no real game-changing, ballhawk safety. That should be their priority, even above a wideout - look at what an upgrade Troy Polamalu provided for Pittsburgh's TEAM upon his arrival (not just their defense, but their entire team), and imagine what a safety like Eric Berry could do for a defense that already boasts a solid linebacking core, an above-average front line rotation, and the best tandem of cornerbacks in the NFL.

You should have left point number 6 out. At no point did you prove anything or add to the conversation. You claim to know anything about Larry Johnson, the cry baby in KC because you met him once. And then go on to make a bunch of assumptions about Matt Jones (including an idiotic nickname you and your buddies think is hilarious).

Larry Johnson likes money more than the game, that is why he held out. He cried when things didn't go his way and couldn't break a tackle in KC.

Also, you can comment on a draft this soon after it happened. When that many people contribute on a team that won the division, it was a success. You can continue to hold your breath and hope these guys fail in some way so you can type in all capital letters "I TOLD YOU SO" but people like me and blester, we will enjoy the success.

TJ was a cancer and continues to be. Also, he used to be that guy with the pony tail that couldn't hold onto a punt. He developed, after a long time in the league. You would have labeled him a bust at the time also.

Regardless of whether or not you believe my personal interaction with Larry Johnson (and, if you look back at my posts on here, you'll see that I'm not the type to make big claims about things I've done, so there's really no reason to doubt the one thing I'm claiming), the fact remains that: Johnson was out of football for two weeks (if that), he doesn't have a substance abuse problem, and he actually turned in an impressive workout before being signed to a half-year contract at the veteran minimum. Matt Jones has been out of football for over a year now, has had problems with cocaine which may or may not be behind him (the massive weight gain would lead me to believe that it is behind him), and, from all accounts, had a TERRIBLE workout (and for those who doubt this, claiming it's something made up someone on this blog, it came from Joe Reedy, the Bengals beat writer, who's proven time and again to know what he's talking about). So yeah, I guess by pointing that out, I really didn't add anything to the conversation. And, for the record, "White Rick James" amuses me, and probably only me, but until it fails to do so, I'll continue to use it. As for the whole "my buddies" thing, I haven't seen anyone else comment about it, much less agree that it's entertaining, so I'm wondering where you're getting your vitriol from.

As for commenting on the draft, LIKE I SAID IN MY POST, at this point in 2006, the 2005 draft looked like the best Bengals draft class ever, with Pollack, Thurman, Perry, and Henry all contributing to a team that won the division. How'd that work out? Which is why, AS I SAID, most experts agree you can't fairly comment on a draft for three seasons afterwards. But keep telling yourself otherwise.

Honestly, I'd prefer to say "Hey, the Bengals finally won a Super Bowl! Let's celebrate!" than "I told you so", but 20 years of mediocre (or worse) on-field performance, combined with 20 years of piss-poor management, of which the highlights are two seasons where the Bengals couldn't make it out of the Wild Card round of the playoffs, have conditioned me not to believe the hype.

Also, please prove to me that TJ was a cancer and how does he continue to be? Because Seattle didn't have a starting quarterback for about 80% of their season? That's TJ's fault? My point, though, was that he was a better, and more consistent, performer ON THE FIELD than either Coles or Caldwell, and I'd like to see you disprove that. The only other time I mentioned TJ was to say that calling Caldwell "a great contributor for a third round pick" wasn't paying him a very good compliment, since TJ has led the league in receptions and third-down reception percentage and he was drafted in the seventh round. And, if you're willing to look at stats, TJ's breakout year was his third full season, hardly "a long time in the league". Let's see how Simpson and Caldwell do if they don't get injured this year (a hamstring injury wiped out TJ's third season) - I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I highly doubt they're going to be "the next Chad and TJ", which is what I'm sure you, and guys like you, were touting them as on the message boards. And actually, I never labelled TJ a bust, because he at least contributed to the team in some way (returning punts, including a 126 punt return yard game against Cleveland), something Simpson has yet to do for even a single game. That, to me, is a bust, especially from a guy taken that early in the draft. There's a huge difference between a second rounder and seventh rounder, a fact you're apparently unwilling to believe.

And, finally, for future reference, when I'm trying to have a constructive and friendly debate with blester01, try to keep your unfounded opinions to yourself.

unfounded opinions, and keep them to myself?

What makes your opinions outweigh any one else's opinions in this forum? Oh because you type long winded answers that bore people you think you are somehow more respected on the internet? Your sense of self importance seeps into your comments and interactions on here. Excuse me for assuming you have buddies, which you clearly demonstrate and point out you do not.

And I thank you for proving to me (and everyone else) that you have no arguments for what I posted, hence why you switched to an ad hominem attack. Had I not addressed my post THAT YOU REPLIED TO specifically to blester01, then I wouldn't have had a problem with you responding, even if your response was both baseless and focused more on attacking me than actually addressing any of the points I made. At no point did I say my opinion was more valuable than yours or that I have more "internet respect" than you (with that and a dollar, I could buy a cup of coffee, I suppose), only that when I was specifically attempting to have a friendly dialogue with someone else, I'd appreciate it if you kept your personal attacks to yourself.

I also find it humorous that you start trolling, then complain when you get flamed - it's almost funnier than you actually visiting this site when the message board is clearly better suited to you and your fragile ego.

No arguments? You want arguments?

TJ was and is a cancer. See while you were not attending games I still was. More often than not, the drama coming from the sidelines was from TJ. Arguing with Carson, coaches and mostly officials. These are things that the TV cameras never picked up on.

TJ left the Bengals because of his ego, the offers were almost identical. He didn't want to be in Chad's shadow and made a point to continue to blast the Bengals this whole season. That is terrible considering how his team was performing.

On to your friend LJ (who I never doubted that you met. Only that you actually claim to know his current motivations about football from meeting him his freshman year in college). This is a guy who may have only missed two weeks (because he did get paid) but constantly was bickering in the public eye with other players and his head coach. Dick Vermeil a well respected coach actually compared him to a big baby on several occasions. This is not a team or love of the game attitude.

Now, you claim that I attacked you? Nope, just responding. Do you remember typing these lines:
- "But keep telling yourself otherwise."
- "try to keep your unfounded opinions to yourself"
along with the many uses of all caps which is commonly known as "attitude" on the net.

You see this is a blog. Based on opinions, if you don't want other opinions seeping into yours, then get blesters email address and keep it private.

About reacting to the draft. It is asinine to discount anything players do until 3 years after the draft. Is the jury still out on Michael Oher, Desean Jackson or any other number of players commenters on this board crucify the Bengals for passing on? Rey, Johnson and Huber all played large roles in the success of the Bengals this year. The only reason people like you are "holding your judgement" is because you all are glass half empty when it comes to the Bengals. Is this a generalization that you will probably point out in a pompous response? probably, but no different than you assuming I spend time at

Wyatt, you are obviously an intelligent person, it is sad that you begin posts with "let me state that I appreciate tremendously the intelligent discourse " but then will not return the courtesy. I did not attack you, just stated that I find it hard to believe you are holding onto an impression of LJ from a short meeting his freshman year of college while assuming things about Matt Jones based of what was reported.

LJ has been arrested and is known for spitting in womens faces when drinking. he is not some model citizen.

I was just sitting on the sidelines the past two days, and your post came across to me that you were attacking. No biggie, just seemed like you trying to beat down the man.

FYI, The Kenny Irons thing was just an example, not their biggest F up. I know your point of holding on to people too long. A lot of it has to do with salary structures and taking the big cap hit. Hard to believe, but Akili Smith was still on the team Palmer's first year. It is just the business of it. Other teams do this as well. It sucks, but I think it is an overreaction on the fans part to stuff like this. If I was in charge, I would have tried to trade Jones and Anderson after the 2007 season to try to get extra picks to focus on rebuilding the O-line in the 2008 draft. Instead they tried to get two WR's to develop behind Chad and TJ, which right now doesn't look like it may work out for them.

Yes, the 2005 draft really bit them in the ass and set them back a couple of years. But talent wise it was a great draft- they got snagged by untimely injuries and mental illnesses that they unfortunately choose to overlook. Even with the great 2006 draft, it was too much for them to overcome b/c they had too many holes to fill, especially when you add all of the injuries they had on the o-line in '06 & '07. This past year was a crap shoot since no one had an idea how well the new o-line was going to produce. I knew they would be a definite improvement from 2008 line, but the question was how much of an improvemetn. For its first year together, they did a good job, and they should be pretty tough next season. Side note: another team that has quietly assembled a damn good line: Cleveland- they should be a lot tougher next season, and could be a sleeper (you heard it hear first). Anyway, I drafted Benson in the 5th round of our fantasy league last year b/c I thought he may have a shot at doing something with a better line in front of him, that bet paid off very nicely.

Finally, to get to my point, which is simply just this: yes, the Bengals still make mistakes (really what organization doesn't), but the main difference is there are a lot fewer of the really big fucked up decisions then there were in the 90's. To me that is a sign of progress, and a sign that things are changing within the organization.

For instance the Steelers have our equivalent of Simpson in Limas Sweed- the dude was a 2nd round pick in '08 and has caught only 7 passes in two years (1 in 2009), and I think we was rated higher than JS. In Cincy, we would call that a bust and would be calling him a wasted pick. In Pittsburgh it is called letting him learn the ropes. In Cincy, we expect our draft picks to contribute day one since they typically have had to contribute day one for the past two decades- good teams can draft guys high and work them in over a couple of years- it is called planning. Something I noticed the Bengals have been trying to do with picks like Simpson and Whitworth. Witworth was supposed to sit on the bench and be groomed to replace the quickly aging and often injured Jones at LT. It did not work out that way of course.

Now another fair question is has there been enough of a change to win the SB? I don't know; probably not. But we will definitely see the answer this offseason. Marvin is talking about taking the team to next level next year, and I agree with Marvin that the team he has in place right now is in a great position to be able to do just that. They will have a top ten line on offense and defense in place- probably a first since 1981 or '88. They only have a few key spots that need to be upgraded and filled in on both sides that can take them to the next level. All of this is manageable though. To get to this point was not just dumb luck; it took several years of successful drafting and key FA pickups (again yes there some misses and set backs- everyone has them). The key to making the leap this year will be what they do in FA b/c in order to make the leap they cannot just depend on the draft this year. For instance, they need a WR to contribute day one (or a guy like Simpson to finally get it and step up); a rookie cannot provide that since it takes them a year or two to develop (which is why I think the pick will go to guard, safety or LB. I don't believe Matt Jones was that veteran pick up. If it was, I will bitch up a storm, but it so unlikely.

Since you played, (you may have coached as well like I did) either way you should also understand that the majority of winning the game is controlling the line of scrimmage- after that everything else can fall into place. For instance, I was 9-2 in picking games in the playoffs. The two I missed were Baltimore's upset of SD & Arizona's defeat of GB. I did this just by selecting teams who had the better chance of controlling the LOS and how the team's secondaries matched up, and yes I bet against my own team. I suck at picking in the regular season b/c there are a lot of other factors that go into it- so I stay away from doing so, but the playoffs are pretty easy since both teams are highly motivated and it just basically comes down to match-ups and coaching.

I believe Marvin has had a positive influence in the decision making process (you can see other posts of mine on why I believe that it is the decision making process that is critical, and not the size of the scouting department). In the past Mike ran things with an iron fist and wanted to prove something to PB. He was a terrible gambler. When he brought Marvin in, he brought an outsider in for one reason; to make up for his 10 year history of fuck ups. I think Marvin started out well. After the poor 2006 season Mikey got pissed at Marvins performance (I remember the grumblings) and I bet he put his head back in the war room. Notice I did not include the 2007 draft in my list of successes- only one player remains from that year: Leon Hall. Mike said it himself, “When things went wrong here, I never believed they were Marvin's doing. Others were in the kitchen with him, including me." I have a feeling that since that draft Marvin has gotten control back, and you can see the difference in the returns we are getting: 2 successful drafts in a row and 11 wins this year (vs. 2 ten years ago). That is progress my comrade.

Whoops, meant 10 wins.

First off, please go back and re-read my posts - I never said I met LJ during his freshman year of college - it was during his rookie season in Kansas City, not terribly long after Vermeil said he (LJ) "needed to change his diaper". He spent 72 hours in my apartment, and he was someone I'd watched play every weekend for the previous 3 1/2 years, so the topic of football came up, and frequently. During those discussions, it became abundantly clear to me that his displeasure in Kansas City wasn't due to his contract, it was due to not being given a fair opportunity to earn playing time. For whatever reason, he and Vermeil butted heads essentially from draft day forward, and that's why he was unhappy. Did it turn into a money issue later on? Yes, it absolutely did, but that all stemmed from the bad feelings that started during his rookie season. He never felt appreciated in Kansas City, and that ended up making it an extremely poor marriage. Yes, that was the only time I met him in person, but I remain in contact with my ex-roommate to this day, and he in turn remains in contact with Larry Johnson. So while I haven't spoken to him directly, I did inquire to my ex-roommate about him in the wake of LJ signing with the Bengals. I was informed that he was pleased to be out of Kansas City, and especially happy to be given an opportunity to play for a playoff-bound team. My roommate also mentioned that he was hoping to be able to do what Benson had done, and show that Kansas City was simply a bad fit for him, and that he could still be a premiere-caliber running back. It was never my intention to bring any of this to light, as I detest this type of internet name dropping, and I only mentioned that I met Larry Johnson as a reason for why I favored his signing and am against Matt Jones'. Yes, there is a personal bias there, having attended Penn State and being a fan of his performance, and by admitting that I'd met him, I wanted to make that bias plain in my reasoning.

If you saw TJ causing a scene on the sidelines, then I will accept that he was potentially a cancer; however, your prior post and blester's were simply a statement that "TJ was a cancer" with no evidence to back it up, yet you took umbrage at me claiming that LJ was motivated by love of the game. Do you see the hypocrisy there? Again, though, my main point wasn't whether or not TJ was a cancer, it was that he was a better performer on-field than Coles or Caldwell, which is something you've yet to address; my references to him being a cancer (or not being a cancer) were only in passing. All I know is that the guy led or was near the top of the league in receptions in 2005, 2006, and 2007 and was also at or near the top of the league in third-down reception percentage in that same time frame. Also, during his time in Cincinnati, Chad Johnson didn't have such a large disparity between his percentage of the team's catches and every other receiver on the team.

Also, your snarky comment about me not attending games doesn't necessarily cut me that deeply, seeing as how I: a) live 4 1/2 hours from Cincinnati (roughly halfway between Pittsburgh and Cleveland) and b) travel as a part of my work (health and safety officer for an environmental remediation company) and am usually forced to watch Bengals games at a sports bar in whatever city I find myself (this past year it was Philadelphia, upstate New York for the 2008 season, Green Bay for the 2007 season, etc, etc).

You've responded twice to my posts now, and both times, rather than actually try to argue my actual points, you've focused on tangential information (TJ being a cancer and whether or not I knew LJ and/or his motivations) that was more an attack on my credibility than a refutation of any facts that I stated. Do YOU remember typing these?

"including an idiotic nickname you and your buddies think is hilarious"
"You can continue to hold your breath and hope these guys fail in some way so you can type in all capital letters "I TOLD YOU SO" but people like me and blester, we will enjoy the success."
"You would have labeled him a bust at the time also."

All of those came before I ever make a smart comment towards you. As for my use of all caps, I guess I'm not as 'net-savvy as you are, because I do it simply for emphasis, because I've never tried HTML tags to see if I could bold sections of what I write. I didn't realize it was "attitude", so I hope you'll accept my apology for the confusion.

My initial post that you replied to was directed at blester01, meaning I was not only addressing what he said but also hoping to continue the discussion that we had started. If you wanted to jump in, I feel that you should've started with the post I made before that, which was addressed to both you and blester and was requesting more information about why you felt so positively about the Bengals' recent personnel moves. Had you addressed that post initially, then I wouldn't have said "keep your unfounded opinions to yourself", and I would have made a more civil attempt at fostering a dialogue with you. I'm not an unreasonable person, but I'd appreciate a modicum of civility, especially when you and TheTruth seem to be blasting the regulars of this board for failing to provide you with the same.

As for the draft? Again, please go back and re-read what I've written. At no point did I discredit anything that Andre Smith, Rey Maualuga, Michael Johnson, Bernard Scott, or Kevin Huber did for the team this season. I simply stated that it's too early to call this the best draft in Bengals history because there's still the potential for it to blow up in our faces just like the 2005 draft did (and 2005's draft would still be a success in my eyes if not for Pollack's injury and Henry's untimely death, so it's not just about the character issues for me, as you seem to imply). Let me ask you this, point blank - do you consider the 2005 draft a success? Four years ago, I did, just like you are doing now for the 2009 draft. The only players of note from the 2005 draft who made the Bengals 2009 roster were Chris Henry and Jonathan Fanene. Pollack got injured, Thurman washed out due to alcohol abuse issues, Ghiachuc was arguably the worst starting center in the Mike Brown era, Adam Kieft never saw the field, and Tab Perry spent more time on the IR than on the active roster before being unceremonious released. That's the reason that expert analysts say that you need to wait three years to objectively analyze a draft, and that's the reason why I agree with them. As I said, that's not me trying to take away anything that the guys drafted in the 2009 draft did for the team this year, but it's also not me being short-sighted, something a large majority of this team's fanbase is guilty of. If you've read the manifesto, there's a reason we're not happy with 2005 and 2009's success, and that's because we want to see some kind of SUSTAINABLE IMPROVEMENT (sorry again for the all caps, but that's really important to note), not simply sporadic winning seasons capped off by a first-round loss in the playoffs. Getting one good year out of draft picks doesn't provide that sustainability. Do I want those guys, or any Bengal for that matter, to fail? Absolutely not, but if I'm holding my breath, it's just in the hope that they'll break the seeming curse that surrounds this franchise since Mikey Boy took it over.

I am intelligent, yes, sometime to the point of pomposity (as you so kindly pointed out); however, that doesn't change the fact that I've laid out the same points (TJ is better on-field than Coles or Caldwell; picking up LJ was smarter than Matt Jones not because he was of a higher character, but because he was in game shape and hadn't missed significant time; and that evaluating the draft this soon reeks of short-sightedness, especially in light of the 2005 draft) in three posts now, and you've yet to respond to any of them other than tangentially.


I started my response to WhoDeyFans at work and had the window open and totally missed your response - sorry, man, because it was really well thought-out and I like getting insight on why you think the way you think. Also, I hope you're correct in your theory about Mikey Boy giving Marvin more control, other than the 2007 draft, and it does make sense when you look at it like you described.

And while I haven't had the privilege of coaching yet (the travel-oriented nature of my job prevents me from making that commitment and consequently letting a bunch of kids down), I did play both OL and DL, so I have a great appreciation for how important the line of scrimmage is, and I agree that probably 85% of the time in the playoffs, the team that can better control the line of scrimmage on paper is going to win the game.

I was actually able to get Benson in the 7th round of our fantasy draft and with my first and third round picks (AP and Chris Johnson, respectively), I had a pretty respectable stable of running backs. Unfortunately, I doubt I even end up with a combination of any two of those guys this year.

I really do admire your optimism in the face of history, and if things shake out the way you envision them, I'll be the first one in line to buy you a beer in celebration of the Bengals' first Super Bowl victory. Me? I've been burnt too many times by Mikey Boy's greed and short-sightedness to truly get excited for anything other than the games themselves. For those three hours, I'm (mostly) able to forget everything that I hate about the management of this team and just enjoy watching my favorite team take the field. I hate to say it, but I'll admit to spending most of the season waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'm not normally a negative person, but it's just so hard to equate success with this team because it's happened so rarely in my lifetime (I'll be 30 in June, and I started cheering for my granddad's team in 1984). Also, the greatest successes the Bengals have enjoyed in my adult lifetime (or even since I started playing and understanding football and really following the Bengals) have all come with equally great tragedies (Carson's knee, Thurman's alcohol addiction, Pollack's near-paralysis, and, most sadly, Henry's death). I apologize if I've come across as condescending or smug towards you - that wasn't my intention, and I really do appreciate the discourse we've developed here. I feel like I've garnered a better undertanding of your position (and possibly even WhoDeyFan's, even though I still feel as though he's simply here to troll), and you've also managed to put things in perspective for me. Granted, the Bengals are not going to be confused with the Colts or the Patriots on draft day any time soon, but they also shouldn't be confused with the Bengals of the 90s or the first half of this past decade.

Also, as a ps of sorts, to answer your question - "has there been enough of a change to win the SB?" In a word? No. But that's simply because Bob Bratkowski is still the Bengals' offensive coordinator (with emphasis on offensive). With the proper offensive coordinator, I think Chase Coffman and possibly even Simpson could've contributed SOMETHING to the team. Unfortunately, Bob Bratkowski shouldn't be responsible for coordinating an offense that includes anyone over the age of 8, where running the ball predictably 99% of the time can actually be effective.


Glad we got a better understanding of our positions. Trust me though. The team as it stands right now is headed towards a sustainable improvement like you, I, this website, and the fans all want. These things take time. Yes there were a lot of set backs in getting here, but they are finally beginning to turn the corner.

Let me take you back and give you a brief history lesson on how we got to where we are:
After their great 2005 season what was their weakness? The defense. Even if Palmer and Henry would not have gotten hurt and if we would have beaten the Steelers, they would have been destroyed by the Colts. The 2005 team had no pass rush, terrible secondary, awful special teams and terrible defensive coaching (which could also look bad due to the lack of talent). So in the draft what do they do, they focused on their needs:

1) Joseph - great pick, after a slow start he has become a top 10 CB.
2) Whitworth - great pick, selected b/c Donte Whitner (S) was off the board. He was selected to be groomed to replace the beginning to age Jones. (Planning ahead)
3) Rucker - Pass rusher, he has provided good depth to the team when able to play
4) Peko - Run stuffer, he has been a gem turning into a top 10 DT.
5) AJ Nicholson - Hard tackling LB, unfortunately he didn't make it.
6) Reggie McNeal - no idea who this guy is
7) Ethan Kilmer - Special teams star - unfortunately injuries got the best of him.
7) Bennie Brazell - WR with return abilities - unfortunately he didn't make it.

On top of this they brought in:
1) Sam Adams (DT) - yes he was getting old, but it was a gamble worth. He was a temporay stop gap, he was only picked up to help stop the bleeding on the running game.
2) Dexter Jackson (S) - run stopping safety. Good pickup to help stop the run.
3) Rashead Jenty (SLB) - Stud pass rusher from the CFL. Only meant to contribute in special packages, but ends up starting b/c of injuries.
4) Anthony Wright and Doug Johnson (QB's) - only to fill in if Palmer couldn't make it.

So you have a great offense with no special teams or defense to back it up. They focus on their weaknesses like they should have in the offseason, and what happens early in the season? They start out 3-0 and then Jones, Anderson, and Braham (3/5's of the O-line and the key spots) as well as Pollack and D. Jackson go down with injuries and Thurman get busted for his DUI- never to return. Their season was an uphill battle from there. They limp to 8-8, yet they still almost make the playoffs.

Fans are pissed, Mike Brown is pissed, etc. So I think this is when Mike steps back into the picture out of frustration. One day someone will write a book about the behind the scenes and we will know for sure. So you finish 8-8 (a good record for what you had to deal with), but you now have a once dominate O-line most likely shambles, no LB's left on your team due to mental illnesses and injuries, and a secondary and D-line that still sucks due to injuries. Which one do you fix first?

They went with the gamble that the o-line injuries were a fluke, and focused on the secondary in the draft since it takes the secondary a year to develop, but they randomly selected Kenny Irons and a QB for some reason- still to this day those two picks make no sense (screams of Mike Brown logic). They get Hall and Ndukwe to contribute.

They gambled wrong, Jones, Braham, and Anderson fall apart again in the 2007 season and Palmer gets beat to hell b/c of it. They go 7-9.

2008 draft roles around. You have a once dominate O-line that is most likely crap b/c it has no center and unreliable left and right tackles (but are still capable of playing), still crappy D-line, terrible LB's and secondary (due to a weak front 7), unhappy WR's who are beginning to age. This is where I would have tried to trade Jones and Anderson and focused on rebuilding the O-line to protect Palmer and restart the running game to take pressure off of him.

Instead they get Rivers (LB), Simpson (WR), Sims (DT), Caldwell (WR), Collins (T), Shirley (DT, Lynch (S), Sherry (TE), Craig (OLB), and Urratia (WR). Kind of makes sense b/c WR's take a year or two to develop, but they don't focus on their number one issue. They get Odom in FA to bring a upgrade the still non-existent pass rush (he gets injured), and they bring in Zimmer to turn around the defense.

So what do we get? Terrible O-line = Palmer gets raped on the field, shreds his elbow, and is lost for the season. We go 4-11. But we also see signs of a good defense coming together after all of the years of drafting and FA adds.

We know what they did in the 2009 offseason- all the right things: refocus on rebuilding the O-line (it looks like it worked thanks to the grooming of Cook the past couple of seasons), they extend Benson's deal to keep him in town for 2 more years and he will be the punching bag for the upcoming season to take heat off PTSD'd Palmer (if Benson sucks he can be replaced in the draft, if he succeeds they filled a need), and they finally can focus on depth and situational players on defense.

Had the 2006 season not played out as it did they would be in a different place. Unfortunately it caused a snowball effect of bad decisions, bad luck, and a lot of frustration on everyone's part.

Through all of the bad times during 2006 to 2008 this team was quietly building a good team in the draft (just like Cleveland is doing right now). People like Bill Cowher and me saw this (I never predicted a playoff run b/c I was unsure of how the new O-line was going to produce and it was quite a surprise). To be honest I thought 2010 was going to be their breakout year, and I still think it will be (to show they are legit). They may not improve their record this year, but they will not be worse than 8-8 unless all hell breaks loose again like 2006. How they do depends on their moves in FA. If they are aggressive and go after some big name players, then I am predicting they will improve and make a push for the SB (but still may fall short). If they play it cool, and focus on adding talent and depth in the draft then 2011 will be their year. We'll check back in about a month.

PS. I agree with the fire Brat thing. I have posted several times that he needs to go. After the Broncos stunning loss, I think Zimmer was fair game to punch that man in the face. I have never seen an OC call a game to hold onto a 0-6 score before like he did that day. He is not bright, so he cannot outthink an opponent. However, to fire him write now puts off a successful season for another year since it takes about a year for the team to digest a new playbook, terminology and be able to play without thinking. I would have loved to had Hue Jackson or Mike Martz come in this year, but I can't always get what I want.

Also never post public stuff about yourself on the comment boards. It only opens yourself up to sucker punches. I like the insight, but you will be forced to write huge rebuttals defending yourself like you did before your last post.

Interesting article about Marvin that supports my theory of the importance of decision making. Glad to see he is standing up about this:

Cincinnati Bengals coach Marvin Lewis went on at some length when asked at the NFL scouting combine about the status of talks to extend his contract. But he offered little more than vague hints about certain "things" that need to get done before he'll re-sign with the team.

Lewis, who was named Associated Press coach of the year in 2009, has just one year left on his contract. He suggested when meeting with reporters that the issues he wants resolved before he'll sign a new deal have more to do with the structure of the team than how much money he'll make.

"There's a lot of things that go into that. In the direction of things that we're doing and how we're doing things that are important to me," Lewis said, per Joe Reedy of the Cincinnati Enquirer. "There were things when I started in this job in 2003 that were important and we can't change those. They have to stay on track and I have to make sure we're continuing to progress that way. Those are the things that are more important to me as anything.

"I'm talking about structure, decision and how we do things and how I have the ability to do things that give us an opportunity to win football games."

Lewis wouldn't name any of those "things" in particular, but the "things" presumably involve making sure Lewis will have the autonomy to make the decisions he wants on matters related to personnel and his coaching staff. Whatever the "things" are, Lewis says he's not stressing the final year of his contract.

"I can't worry, I'm not going to," Lewis said. "The most important thing is what we do on the field in 2010. That's the most important thing for those 53 guys we end up with and those coaches I have. Not whether I have a contract or not."

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    Bengals Futility - By The Numbers

    • 20 - Years since the Bengals have won a playoff game

      0 - Total number of playoff wins in Mike Brown's tenure as owner

      .359 - Bengals regular season winning percentage since Mike Brown took over as owner (115-206-1 in 20 seasons)

      29-34-1 - Record since 2005 playoff game vs Steelers

      6 - Seasons the Bengals have lost their first six games since 1991. No other team has more than two.

      0 - Teams North of Cincinnati without an indoor practice facility

      10 - Players arrested in a 14 month span from 2005-2006

      32 - Mike Brown's ranking, out of 32, of the "Best Owners in the NFL" by Michael Silver of Sports Illustrated in 2007

      458,000,000 - Amount, in dollars, that Hamilton County Taxpayers paid to build PBS

      2032 - Year that Hamilton County will have finally paid off its debt on the stadium deal

      3 - Total number of non-clerical employees employed in the Bengals scouting department, lowest in the league

      747,000,000 - Amount, in dollars, paid in free agency by the Bengals from 1994 - 2005, second worst of all 28 teams in existence for the duration, behind only Arizona

      118 – Ranking, out of 118 professional teams, of the “Worst Franchises” in professional sports, as ranked by ESPN the Magazine in 2003.

      97 – Ranking, out of 98 general managers in all four major sports with three or more years of experience, of Mike Brown’s performance as a GM, as ranked by Forbes in 2007.

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