Supporting the Players Without Enabling the Owner

We typically don't respond to posts that appear other blogs on here.  It's not because we don't read them, all of us get Bengals related information from one source or another.  It's only because it doesn't really fit with the overall theme of the site.  We feel that most of the time it's counterproductive. 

However, from time to time, we see a post elsewhere and feel we need to clarify our position on something and to explain ourselves.  This is one of those times.  If you have a minute, please read this post over at Cincy Jungle.  In particular, this passage:

Maybe I'm just conflicted. I'm all for change, and I've supported the Who Dey Revolution. On the other hand, the Bengals are 4-1 right now. They're at the top of the division. Why not enjoy it this year and see where they go? Why would you want to miss a playoff season if they make it? Because of some preordained prophesy of hurting the owner's pockets will incite instant change? If that's the way it works, then good. Do your best. But our favorite team is 4-1. Our favorite team is leading the division. Our favorite team is doing things we haven't seen them do before.

We're not asking people to not enjoy this (or any) Bengals season.  I watched all 16 games last year.  And the year before that.  And the year before that.  While I didn't particularly enjoy some of them, I watched.  I'm as nervous, tense, and excited as ever each and every Sunday this year.  I'm enjoying this season.  I'd never ask Bengals fans to not enjoy any game, much less ones during a potential playoff-type season.  That's the whole point of being a fan.  For three hours on 16 Sundays a year, nothing else matters.

We don't want people to miss a playoff season.  We're not going to miss it.  And not just the ones who, like me, don't live in the Greater Cincinnati area.  It's true that some of the writers here won't be directly affected by a local blackout.  Don't get the impression that none of us live in Cincinnati, however.  I know that most of the time, people will suggest an alternative with the disclaimer, "I'm not encouraging you to break the law, but...."  No.  I am encouraging you to do what you have to do to watch every Bengals game, outside of buying tickets at Paul Brown Stadium.  If you have to watch JustinTV, do it.  If you have to rig a Slingbox, do it.  If you have to rig your DirecTV setup for Columbus/Lexington area stations, do it.  If you have to get up at 10 am Sunday and drive to an sports bar in an area that's getting the game, do it.  I've done similar things in the past to watch Bengals games.  So please, understand:  ENJOY THIS (AND EVERY) SEASON.

We support pretty much everyone in the organization outside of the front office.  Sure, we attack the occasional epic failure, such as Brad St. Louis and Bob Bratkowski, and we're not afraid to offer honest opinions on how we feel players are performing, but overall we don't blame the Bengals' plight on them.  How many "Fire Marvin" posts did you see on here last year?  We didn't feel he was the problem.  Mike Zimmer is a hero to all and probably Mike Brown's best acquisition over the last few years.  The point is:  we do support this team and we are fans first.  This blog doesn't work in any other case.

However, supporting the players and enabling the owner are two different things.  We're not going to let 5 games worth of data override 18 years worth.  We're not willing to say that this organization has turned it around.  We don't feel like, "Our favorite team is doing things we haven't seen them do before."  We saw them do this very thing in 2005.  We will not be fooled again.  Even if we were to feel that way, wouldn't that be pretty pathetic?  I've been alive for nearly 25 years now.  I have memories stretching back to around 1990.  Wouldn't the fact that I hadn't seen my favorite football team win four of their first five games be a negative?  Especially considering they were under the control of one man that entire time?  If that is true, isn't it logical to feel that man shouldn't control the team any longer?

Also, we don't feel that this is going to hurt the team in the future.  The suggestion that boycotts will drive down profits, which in turn may force the Bengals to cut costs, is a good one.  But what is the alternative?  Continue heading like sheep to the ticket window and merchandise line?  Haven't we seen where that road takes us?  Mike Brown may never change, but we know he'll never change without an damn good reason to do so.  We hope to give him that damn good reason.

Comments

[doug dean]

I am going to go to the games, drink beer and tailgate my butt off. I love it the Bengals are winning. I usually agree with the Who Dey Revolution, but you are wrong. Die hard Bengal Fans, get to the game and support our team. We may not have another season like this for a while so enjoy it while its here. Let the Revolutioners sit at home and watch it, I will be down with the action! WHO DEY!!!!!!

[Chris T]

I agree with the guy above. I am all about not buying drinks and food at the games, but I have been following the Bengals for 30 years and am going to enjoy this year. You aren't doing anything by not going to the games other than hurting the players and yourself. Enjoy it!! Get down there!! Get the WHO DEY chant going before the other team steps on the field!! Let them know where their at and 2009 is our season!! Or sit in the bar and watch the game. Wouldn't you rather be there!!! I know I would, Mike Brown suxs, but who cares he is gonna be here for ever so get used to it!!!

[nick dog]

I like the idea of chanting Who Dey as the other team gets announced, or before they even walk out of the tunnel! I mean isn't that what who dey is? The other team gets announced and we say "Who Dey". Let them know their in the jungle. Thats right their in the jungle and it is alive and bumping in 2009!!Hey if your gonna go, get into it!! Who Dey

[rele]

My problem is with the fans...It may be me but we have one of the weakest home field advantages in the nfl? only if we're ahead do you hear the crowd and if we're 7 pts down their dead silent...Now when were 4-1 we can't even sell out? I understand what your trying to do WDR IMO we need more then general manager we need a tony Dungy or a MartySschottenheimer to come in and run football operations but not selling out a couple games isn't gonna get that to happen...

I can only see one way it happening :|

[Wyatt]

@rele: Marty Schottenheimer? Really? Marvin got the Bengals to the first round of the playoffs and lost, so why would they need Marty Chokenheimer?

@the rest of the rabble: Why is it that the most vociferous (look it up) anti-WDR comments are posted by people who overuse the exclamation point, don't know the difference between "there", "they're", and "their", and generally don't seem to have a solid grasp on the English language? But, please, by all means, keep it up - you're only making the rest of us, the intelligent Bengals fans who are calling for a massive organizational change, look all the better. We're the fans who can see through a 4-1 start (or even the occasional playoff season) and realize that for this to become anything more than a few crumbs thrown to a starving dog, this organization needs to be fundamentally different than it has been for the past two decades, and without that kind of sweeping change, we're going to continue to be some of the most downtrodden fans in the NFL.

[Mark]

I agree with this post 100 percent. I called for a Bengals Boycott a couple of years ago. I found this site while researching that article for the Dayton City Paper.

I've been a Bengals since their first game when everyone around me, including my parents, were Browns fans. I was a Bengals fan for 20 years when I lived in Texas. I'll be a Bengals fan until either the Bengals or I die, but for my own wellbeing and the wellbeing of Bengals fans everywhere, I will not put one dime of my money in Mike Brown's pocket. I encourage every fan to enjoy this team to the greatest extent possible while refusing to enrich Mike Brown.

Several writers on Around the Horn just scolded Bengals fans for not buying tickets, and they failed to mention this boycott on the show. I don't need lectures from people who haven't suffered under Mike Brown's ownership. Write them and let them know how you feel.

[Pistol Pete]

I am in the United States military, serving in Germany as a fireman. I will support the Bengals regardless, I will not support the ownership that allows a long snapper to screw up not just one game, but 2-4. Our ownership has kept us from 20 years of success; we will not see succeed without an entire revamp. It will take 10+ more years, well into our nursing home stages before we see some immediate changes. Paul died, Mike took over, Mike dies, Katie takes over(she is no better), and after that MAYBE, we will have some luck. I just want a super bowl before I die, is that too much to ask? I will give my life to this country overseas, can the Bengals give me one ring? please?

[rele]

@Wyatt is this twitter? just wondering anyways I didn't say bring marty in as a coach but a Tuna roll someone who knows how to run football operations...who could pick a GM Pick the staff the front office the scouts etc

[rele]

Wyatt I never said we didn't need change HENCE why I said someone to run football operations.All I said was it will never happen unless Mr Brown dies :|

[MikeBrownMustGo]

@Pistol Pete: We hear you and thank you for your service, too. I am getting older now and beginning to think I won't see the Bengals win one before I die. Back in the 1980s I thought it would happen soon. What a difference two lost decades makes.

I don't understand people who are going to let three 3-point victories wipe out a record of almost 200 losses over the last 20 years. It's clear Mike Brown doesn't have a frickin clue, as was shown on television when he's making the coaches roll their eyes with suggestions of who should play tight end. Result: The Bengals right now have a tight end you don't have to cover because he's got hands of stone. Imagine if the general manager instead wasn't totally incompetent, and could have found a better solution other than stone-hands. That's Mike Brown's job. Any one of us would get fired for doing a job as poorly as he has done it.

[rele]

@ Mikebrownmust go

---I don't understand people who are going to let three 3-point victories wipe out a record of almost 200 losses over the last 20 years---quote----

Well I can understand people being excited because these are the type of games we lose in the past 15 years including 2005 where if we didn't take huge lead early we would lose.

[Artrell Hawkins]

FYI - Lexington is in the Bengals primary market and will be blacked out for the game. Your post suggests otherwise. Get the facts right.

Columbus probably shows Cleveland Browns games whenever it gets the chance so going there won't help you much. However, I wouldn't know since I would never drive anywhere near that god forsaken end of the state.

[Artrell Hawkins]

For anyone reading this who does not refuse the existence of logic, do not let this site be the factor that deters you from going to a game. If you have the extra money, get a good deal, and want to attend, you are supporting and encouraging a winning football team. You are reinforcing "good behavior", not to mention helping give home advantage to the guys we want to win. You will be paying to see an organization that is doing things right CURRENTLY. The time for protest may come again, but it is not now. For now, you are reinforcing the winning actions of a team doing what we want it to do: WIN.

WDR would tell you it's not good enough, keep supporting the "revolution". This response evades any logical explanation. Question for WDR: is this site a not-for-profit venture? That is, have you earned any form of compensation for your work? Or are you monitarily motivated to keep the "revolution" going no matter how many wins the Bengals racked up.

This is the only way I can logically connect the dots for WDR's continued ranting. WDR refuses to concede that the ultimate absolute goal is winning games (which we are doing right now). By doing so, WDR has repudiated reason. I know, 19 years blah blah blah... but you can't change the past. Today is today. Even if you fire everyone tomorrow and let WDR hire their choice of scouts, trainers, players and towel boys, it will not change the last 19 years. Even if this were possible, as WDR dreams, would this even be a good outcome? Would it produce a team that is better than the one we have today? I'm not willing to make that bet. I don't want to make that bet - for once, I like the team we have and I'm sticking with them.

It may not last, but for right now, this ranting and this site have no purpose. Either admit things are going well and help SUPPORT the winning habit we all strive for, or continue to deny reason, and continue to protest that "A is not A". This is a protest that will not fool many for long.

[Broken Hippo]

First of,I've been in the Black and Orange for 35 YEARS so, for those of you cranky about people on this site not backing the team, get over yourself. Did you know that Chris Collinsworth used to be one of the best receivers in the game (not just some douche hanging out with Bob Costas)? Did you know who #3 or #14 are when you play Madden? Do you remember the ice bowl, the original sugar huddle and Seattle's team full of trick knees or those damn Houston Oilers? I do...Some of us have lived through the good years (with the real #80) and are now hating on the bad because we have earned that right. You know why fans are silent when we're down 7? Because this team has sucked ass for the last 20yrs. Buy tickets, jerseys and hats? Get bent.
Think about this: Because we have no scouting department, we have no depth. They held on to Cpt Happy Snap for 3 games, why is that? Weren't there better long-snapping options 2 weeks ago? Yes, the Bengals just didn't know it. What happens if Jordan Palmer's brother becomes unhealthy, or the new guy wearing Rudi Johnson's number gets a hang nail? What if that defensive player from MI not named Morgan Trent needs to take a vacation? What if there is family reunion in the American Samoa? WHO STEPS IN??? It took 3 weeks to find Bad SnapLouis a replacement, do you think we have supporting talent hanging out in the practice dome?
Now ask yourself this: How are the Colts without Gonzalez or Bob Sanders? How about the Squeelers w/o Polahairlu? (Their 8-2, for the record) Good teams w/ good management have answers to these problems.

WWMBD? He'd start a Dtackle at TightEnd (ala Jason Shirley)

Thus, I will continue to scream my head off for this team every Sunday (from my bar stool) looking at a Steeler fag that STILL thinks his team is sweet. All the while, knowing that if we had the same issue as they had (missing one of our best), we'd be 0-5 and everyone would be here crying like bitches.

So, Long Live the Revolution!!!

BUT: GO BENGALS!!!!!!!! WHO DEY!!!!!!!!!!

[WhoDeyFans]

Artrell

I will take it one step farther. Every journey starts with a single step. Will this be the step that turns around the Bengals? Who knows.

Say for example the Bengals do string together a couple of solid seasons, couple of division titles, couple of playoff games. When do the sheep on this site stop the bitching and climb back on the bandwagon?

Sure, it may be a fluke and it may only be 1 season. But, 2005 was a fun season and I am glad I went to those games. I mean, isn't that why you are a fan? You hope your team can win.

Don't worry, if the tide does turn, I won't throw it in your face. There is plenty of room on the bandwagon.

[MikeBrownMustGo]

@Artrell, you are like the person who says stop preparing for the snow in Antartica because, hey, today is sunny, and the past is the past. The hilarious thing is you label that "logic". ROTFLMAO at that thought. Look it up somewhere.

[MikeBrownMustGo]

What's funny is people take 2 or 3 games to be suddenly convinced that Mike Brown has done *anything* different, and that this might be the "step that turns around the Bengals". Too, too funny. What "step" has Mike Brown done differently this year? Are you just loving the idea of playing scrub defensive ends at tight end? Is that it? They've changed nothing. There's no "step" to be talking about that starts a journey; they simply haven't taken any steps at all. Three straight 3 point wins and you're already booking your Super Bowl tickets? LMAO.

[Hoggle]

you always act like it's all mike Brown,we do have a headcoach and for once it looks like Marvins team...with all Marvin players yes Mike Brown had his once in a life time great draft but I feel coaching staff is what's finally getting it done not mike brown.

[Wyatt]

@rele: I'm assuming the Twitter question is because of the "@(insert comment poster name here)" that started my comment. If that's the case, then I only did that because someone else on here started using it, and it makes it much easier to address who you're referencing. As for Schottenheimer in a "tuna roll", I'm not sure how he'd taste in a sushi delicacy, much less why you're advocating cannibalism on a football site. However, if you meant "in a Tuna ROLE", referring to Bill Parcells' current duties in the Miami organization, then I still argue that Marty brings nothing to the table. He doesn't have a strong enough personality, and the whole reason Parcells is able to do what he does is because he has such a strong personality and such a good track record as a coach, neither of which Schottenheimer can boast. Also, Tony Sparano is nothing more than a Parcells puppet, and in this organization, I think we've seen how well puppet coaches work (hi, Dave Shula!) Plus, that would, again, entail running an offensive and/or defensive system endorsed and/or designed by MARTY FRIGGIN SCHOTTENHEIMER. I don't know about you, but I have no desire to see Martyball rear its ugly head in the 'nati.

@Artrell Hawkins: Lexington is 82 miles from PBS, so therefore, it would not be effected by the blackout, so you're wrong about that. Also, Columbus isn't on the "end" of Ohio. Your post suggests otherwise. Get the facts right. In terms of this site's goals, it's not simply to achieve a 4-1 record or a playoff season or even simply to win, as you seem to think. I don't understand how much more clearly it can be stated than it is in the manifesto - the purpose of this site is to foster a change within the organization of the Bengals' front office, so that decisions are made based exclusively on whether or not they're going to help the Bengals win the Super Bowl and not motivated solely by their financial implications on the Brown family coffers. We're not displeased by this 4-1 start by any stretch of the imagination, but, at the same time, 4-1 isn't a Super Bowl, 4-1 isn't winning consistently for the better part of 20 years, and 4-1 certainly isn't an indication that the Bengals have done anything differently this year. There's no intention of changing the past from the founders or members of this revolution - there's simply an interest in ensuring that the future doesn't consist of another 18 sub-par seasons, and, to date, the Bengals' front office has given us no real indicator that this is the case. In fact, I'd say that if your hypothetical situation did play out, and WDR were allowed to open Mike Brown's checkbook and hand pick a GM, scouts, and a coaching staff, there's no way that we'd be able to accrue such an abysmal record in the next two decades as Mike Brown has done in the past two decades. I'll go a step further and posit that not only would the culture of the team be a winning one, but it would also lead to increased profitability and revenue for the Brown family. There's an old expression that clearly applies to the Browns, and it is that they would "trip over a dollar to pick up a dime" (basically, they can't see the forest for the trees and are unable to look at the bigger picture; ie - a consistent winner and potential Super Bowl champion brings in more revenue long-term than merely doing just enough to get by. Notice that a team in a similar small market that consistently makes the playoffs and has won a pair of Super Bowls this decade isn't worried about getting extensions to ensure that their game isn't blacked out in their home market. Yes, I'm talking about Pittsburgh, and yes, it's painful to do so, but the comparison is an apt one to make in this instance).

[Chris]

first of i understand that no one will probably read this comment, but i will feel better after cleansing my soul.....

my name is chris, i am 47 years old and a lifelong bengal-holic. those of us who have been around lo these 20 years, the boomer years before that (John taylor?), the kenny years, and the "BENGALS" on the helmet years before that have known perpetual disappointment.

so i hate to break it to you, but this team is not that good.

the cleveland game was UNWATCHABLE. they dominated baltimore and still nearly lost. they played like shit against pittsburgh for 50+ minutes.

aside from the baltimore game the only other game they DESERVED to win was the game they lost.

just because the team isn't quitting in the final half of the 4th quarter, while different from years passed, is no reason to jump on the bandwagon if you've jumped off before this season began.

i fully support the revolution although i don't believe for a second it will ever succeed at changing li'l mikey's business model, but i continue to pledge not to spend one more dime that will find it's way into mike brown's pocket until that day comes.

who dey!

[CurseofBoJackson]

Chris, they desreved to win every game they won.... They won, c'mon man, you've apparently watched football for 20 plus years, that should be obvious to you, outcomes matter, that's it, yes, perhaps they played poorly and Brat called some terrible second and third quarters, but, again, we won in the end yes there are thinsg to look at and improve on, "Clean up" to quote Marv, THEY STILL WON THE GAMES. This D is for real, that is not deniable, the running game is for real, also undeniable, so no, I'm not ready to point to a run in Jnuary yet, but give the team some credit.

Artrell, LOGIC dictates that a statistical outlier should NOT be the determining factor in decision making. In this case, almost a third of a season with a good record should not change people's minds about supporting the team monetarily, even if you throw in 05, or EVEN '06 when we choked it up the last three games, 3 of 19 is UNACCEPTABLE! Same phrase applies here, c'mon man, give us some credit, are you employed by the Brownburns?

[Michael]

To those of you going to the game this weekend, I'll just say that "A fool and his money are soon parted." I don't understand how this site has readers that are willing to abandon the revolution after a 4-1 start. Of course we're all fans and want the team to win. We can cheer for the Bengals to win WHILE making sure that Mike Brown gets no more of our money until our demands are addressed. I just don't think that some people get it. You can win in the NFL by sheer chance. You cannot have SUSTAINED WINNING by running an organization the way Mike Brown has chosen to run the Bengals. Therein lies the problem that some people just don't want to admit. MIKE BROWN IS STUBBORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE UNLESS HIGHLY MOTIVATED TO DO SO. You don't make him change by selling out a game after a 4-1 start. He has done nothing to prove that he will change the way he runs things, so VIVA LA REVOLUTION.

[JoeBengall99]

I agree with a couple of your points. I'm not a fan of Mike Brown or his leadership. I don't like the way he runs this organization. If for some miraculous reason the Bengals did hire a GM and switched there overall "philosophy" I would be happy, but this group trying to protest against buying tickets to this game is a pathetic display of loyalty to the team. I guess you are getting your point across a bit because you got are getting negative reaction from loyal fans. I guess negative attention is better than no attention at all for you guys.

I'm a long time bengals fan and I'm fully aware of the Bengals struggles over the years so there is no need for any of you supporters to drop Browns #'s on me. I'm also aware that Jim Lippincot (sp?) looks like an Uumpa Lumppa.

I know you have a number of loyal followers who are looking for some time of leadership in this revolution when things go bad. However, what do you think you are doing to the players morale when you boycott buying tickets to the game? Do you think they support the revolution when they are winning games for this city? Is this tough love for them? I keep hearing how you support the team, not the ownership (i.e. ticket sales, vending, merchandise). Well, you are really helping to support them when you refuse to go to the game.

I would love to sit down and have a conversation with any of you followers over a beer. I would love to hear your logic in front of some true bengals fans who are supporting the players. We are in lot B. I will look for your shirts.

PS You guys are terds (sorry for being immature). I can't help myself

[Artrell Hawkins]

Wyatt,

Once again, you are dead wrong. I suggest doing some research before posting. Get your facts right.

LEXINGTON IS BLACKED OUT. COLUMBUS IS NOT. Fuck the buckeyes by the way.

Enquirer Blackouts 101.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2009/10/14/the-return-of-nfl-blackouts-101/

And I quote:

"If the game is not sold out by 1 p.m. on Thursday (72 hours prior to kickoff) and the Bengals do not get a 24-hour extension, the game will be blacked out within a 75-mile radius of Paul Brown Stadium, which includes Cincinnati (Ch. 12), Dayton (Ch. 7) and Lexington (Ch. 27). For you folks in Lexington, even though the station tower is 75 miles beyond Paul Brown Stadium, you are blacked out too because you are considered a Bengals primary market."

This site is a joke and the speed at which it is unraveling shows how frail in idiotic its message really is. The one redeemed quality it would have, reporting accurate bengals news and facts, is clearly not there. You can't get a simple fact right like where the blackout area is. Understandable, seeing as how you live in new york or DC or wherever. Shouldn't you be rooting for the Giants?

Also, still waiting for a response to my questions on how WDR profits from this site. Unbiased observer? I think not. You make more money when the bengals lose and people are pissed off. Your motivations are clear. Winning isn't good enough. Now we see why.

[Brandon]

My major problem is the wdr is short sighted and generally, pretentious. The fact that someone took the time out to correct someone's grammar is indicative of that. I've said it before on here, there are many teams in this league who have a gm and a scouting department and still aren't that good. Cleveland, Kansas city, st Louis to name a few. Look at the trainwreck that was matt millen's tenure in Detroit.

I happen to agree with josh's post on cincy jungle. Do you really think any top tier free agents are going to want to play here if the games are blacked out? No. Do you think mikey will want to spend money if he's not making as much? No. He gets money from profit sharing no matter what. There's a minimum on the salary cap and if you think he won't hit it to keep his profits high, you're mistaken.

As for other things you're boycotting, such as merchandise, you know that takes money out of players pockets as well, right? Not buying a maualuga jersey means he won't see a portion of that and yeah, he's making a few milllion over the next couple of years, but why punish a player to punish an owner?

[HappyNat]

Artell,

Maybe it's because nobody cares about Lexington or any douchebag who lives there. Go bucks, btw.

JoeBengall99,
You think the players are upset about people not buying tickets? You think they care what we think? I don't think you know pro football players like you think you know pro football players.

[TKS]

Artrell, first, I don't think the WDR writers profit from this site (I may be wrong, I'm not one of them). Second, I liken those of us who are still supporting the boycott to the people who support the troops but are against the war. Or the stock market, would you spend your hard earned money on a stock that has only yielded positive returns one time in the last 18 years? I wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, we are all deliriously happy about the 4-1 start, 1st place Bengals. However, as was mentioned yesterday (I think), shouldn't this be the norm? Don't we, as fans, have the right to EXPECT winning seasons? I am all for supporting the team, that's why I cheer and root as hard as I do, but giving money to an organization that has stated its goal is to be "competitive" (as opposed to every other NFL team that merely wants to win a Super Bowl) just seems like a waste. This does not make me a bandwagon or fair-weather fan.

[Artrell Hawkins]

All of this bickering is pointless in-fighting. We are all fans. Some of us see it a little differently than others - fact is, it's still early and no one knows where this team will go. Guess I'm just trying to be optimistic. Apologies for any abrasive comments, but I just want to win and I really feel the support of the city for our team will help that in some way... no hard feelings.

Let's come together this weekend and support this team - Who dey!

[BMN]

You know what I see? I see a lot of people that are uncomfortable with the fact that they're enabling Mike Brown but they want to justify their cognitive dissonance. One person used an interesting piece of self-defeating logic early in this thread to justify going to the games: "We may not have another season like this for a while so enjoy it while its here." Translation: I don't believe that as a fan, I can be an agent of change. So I'm giving up and accepting that one 4-1 start is enough to wipe out a 18 year track record of failure and buying the tickets. Two points:

1) OK, first of all, this bogus notion that you can't enjoy the Bengals success as much as you can seeing it in person: I'm speaking from the rare perspective of an out-of-town Bengals fan (i.e. not from Cincy, don't live in Cincy, a rural eastern Canadian Bengals is a rare lot indeed). When I went to Paul Brown Stadium in 2005 to see the Bengals roast the Vikings, you'd think that this "small town rube" would have enjoyed that victory more than any other Bengals victory he ever watched because I would have held the precious "NFL experience" in awe because I'd "never seen anything like it."

Y'know what? I had a good time watching the Bengals dominate but I also had to sit in front of three obnoxious @r$e#o!es that made me want to convert my fanship, I had to be sure to be full and not thirsty the whole day so as to avoid paying for any of the overpriced drinks. I ended up buying a bunch of Bengals merch that I immediately felt shameful for buying when Mikey's incompetence (admittedly among other factors) did the team in shortly after their mirage start that year.

I've had just as much fun sitting with a group of fans in the bar than I did that day. Really, the biggest argument for going is that fans want to stick their chests up and be the ones to claim that they're the "true fans" because they were "really there" when it happened. This type of rock-headed thinking is pretty insulting to plenty of people that can't be at the game anyway for a number of reasons besides a boycott. So there's only 60,000 people *truly* enjoying a Bengals game any given week? I mean...really....

2) I have to second the longtime fans here who are quite rightly skeptical. I've drank the kool-aid before, my friends. I thought the Bengals problems were over in 2003 when Marvin Lewis was hired.

Heck, I thought they were over in 2001. Remember that year? After five weeks (where we're at now), they were 3-2 and only a half-game out of first. Writers were talking about their unreliable special teams, their suddenly stouter-than-normal defense and there was an ongoing conversation about whether or not fans should abandon their cynicism and sell out their game against the Bears. Oh, these Bengals were DIFFERENT. Dick Lebeau had given them a new attitude. Never mind the incompetent owner, the Bengals were back on track! Did you see that goal-line stand against the Super Bowl champs? And Grbac didn't want to play here! We sure showed him!

That team finished 6-10 and plummeted to 2-14 the following year.

I'm happy the Bengals are winning now, but I'm not drinking the kool-aid until I see more substantial organizational change and something beyond a 4-1 start. I've seen this script before and it doesn't strike me as change just yet.

[joebengall99]

BMN: Noone is being stubborn by calling you out on your ridiculous line of thinking nor is anyone claiming that you have to be at the game to be considered a "true" fan. There are plenty of excusable reasons why people can't attend the games.

There is a difference from being an "out of town" fan to a keyboard warrior who is trying to convince people not to go to the game because they are upset about Mike Brown. He is not a good owner. Everyone knows that. You only profit off of the Bengals demise. What will you do if the Bengals turn everything around? You'll have to go to GoDaddy.com and buy a new website name supporting the bengals (www.weusedtosupporttherevolution.com) You have to have controversy don't you? What will you do?

There is a cost and balance to everything. Have you been to another NFL stadium? Have you seen prices? There are going to be annoying fans wherever you go. You are not changing anything.

You are a true agent of change? What do you hope to accomplish with this?

TKS - I like how you relate the stock market to the Bengals. I guess when the bengals get a GM you can make a long term investment and but 5 seasons worth of season tickets up front. I hope you get what you are looking for.

MikeBrownMustGo -

Brandon: This may seem a little crazy too you so you may want to sit down. THE PLAYERS ACTUALLY CARE WHEN PEOPLE ARE IN STANDS CHEERING. I know it seems like a foreign concept to you. Also, ticket sales do affect what goes into the players pockets as well you dum dum (merchandise, endorsements, etc.) You now have no right to contribute to anything else for such a stupid comment. Leave it to the adults.

[andrew]

I used to like the idea of WDR, but now I kind of find it to be a cute little Web site with big dreams and little concept of reality.

Get a grip guys. You are wasting money on Web hosting, flying banners over the stadium and toilet bowl cakes. Mike Brown will do things his way until he dies. I like the idea of consumer revolt, but hey, it just ain't going to happen. The only way this team changes before he dies is if 1.) He gets sick, his kids take over and relinquish football operational control to a hired staff or 2.) He decides to sell the team. Barring those two scenarios, it's futile. Even if he did hire a GM, who knows if it'd be better. Browns owner Randy Lerner has deep pockets and stays out of day-to-day operations of his team, and look how far the Browns have come in the last 10 years... yeah. Knowing Mike Brown he'd probably just hire someone who'd be under his thumb anyway.

Mike Brown is in over his head. I'm sure the guy wants to win football games. Why wouldn't he? Unfortunately for us, he thinks he'll figure it out before he's dead. If you guys really want to change the team, one of you just needs to weasel your way into the life/panties of one of his minions and influence their decision making. He won't change any other way.

If I lived in Cincy, I'd go to the game. How often can you get into any NFL game so easily? The seats are there, someone might as well sit in them. Mike Brown's not going to change because you guys whine about him.

[Brandon]

Joebengal - read my comment again please. My statement was about supporting the players and how people should go to the game. I am not a fan of wdr. Make sure you're attacking the right person.

And though I applaud your fire, adults have polite discourse. Not namecalling and attacking without being sure they are attacking the right person.

Thanks.

[Useless]

enjoy Sitting at home,WDR = USELESS

[Brian]

Well,

I will basically say this... your site is wrong. To prove my point, I challenge to you to put how much you profit off your readers, blogs writers, advertisements, and any other material you present via this website as a launch pad. I applaud your efforts in trying to make a change on the team, and I even applaud all the gimmicks you pushed in trying to prove your points. However, the Bengals have sold out every game since basically 2003, and your message just isn't hitting as hard as you so claim it to be (this is also evident). Also, I happen to encourage fans to goto games as much as possible, enjoy the atmosphere, drink beer, eat food, and have fun. The only way to truly enjoy the Bengals, is to be there live and in person when success is being achieved, and I'm sorry: SUCCESS IS BEING ACHIEVED THUS FAR. I am going to be at the game on sunday, my friends are going to be at the game on sunday. I WILL NOT BE AT HOME WATCHING WITH MY DAD, FATHER IN LAW, OR ANY OTHER BORING CRITIC. Be yourself, don't let one website try to convince you that the world is going to change when something happens, because the truth is ~ Mike Brown would probably just leave Cincinnati, and move on to the next most profitable alley. AS ANY GOOD CAPITALISTIC AMERICAN WOULD DO!

Enjoy our success, don't discourage it... WhoDeyRevolution: YOU ARE WRONG, and everybody else, be yourself ~ and do whatever you feel makes you happy...

If the fans of Cincinnati are truly not happy, than change will eventually come ~ even if it takes another 18 years

[Mockenrue]

Wow, I never thought I'd say it, but I almost can't wait until the return of the Bengals to the sewer of the NFL. I mean, I want to see them win a Super Bowl and be a consistent playoff power, but when I weigh that desire against the one to see all the WDR haters suddenly realize how they've continued to fund disaster, even while mercilessly insulting those who gave them fair warning...well. It's a tough call.

[WhoDeyFans]

So you can't wait for the Bengals to lose? You say you want them to win a Super Bowl but to you it is more important at the end of the day to say "I told you so" and "Look guys, I was right".

Real motives coming through?

[brandon]

once again. why i hate wdr. it's not the first time i've heard someone say they are rooting for the bengals to lose. because their ultimate goal is to be right.

and i've promoted parties before. how much do you make off the blackfinn days? 10% of the bar? maybe 20?

[Wyatt]

@WhoDeyFans,

Please bear in mind that Kato, BB, and the bottom line is still a bottom (the guys who were rooting for the Bengals to lose) are not a part of this Revolution, and, like you and brandon and the other trolls, only showed up here recently. To make a more apt comparison, you and brandon and Brian are extreme conservatives - things have been a certain way for so long, you just want things to stay that way, so you look for any excuse to defend the status quo just so long as things stay the same (and, most amazingly, you're so dedicated to the losing tradition you've grown accustomed to, you've actually convinced yourself that winning four games out of the first five is the first step to this franchise becoming a dynasty, as opposed to an amazing run of good luck). Kato, BB, and their ilk are extreme liberals - they want to tear down the entire system and start fresh, no matter how unrealistic or utterly insane that goal is.

The rest of us?

We fall somewhere in the middle - we're diehard enough to enjoy these wins and HOPE (not believe, as you do) they're the sign of something better, but we're smart/realistic enough to realize that history is not on our side, and, based solely on historic precedent, this .800 win percentage is almost guaranteed not to last. Mockenrue fits into the middle category with the regulars here, which is why he said he ALMOST couldn't wait for the Bengals' return to the cellar. We all know it's coming, whether it be Mock and myself, you two, or Kato and BB, but we all deal with the abuse Mike Brown has heaped upon our collective psyches differently. You guys ignore the past to be purely blissful, Kato and his ilk ignore the present to remain miserable, and the WDR regulars simply temper our enthusiasm with a realistic view of how things are going to be in relation to how things have seemingly always been.

Do I want the team to finish 15-1 this season, then make a magical run through the playoffs, culminating in bringing the Lombardi trophy to Cincinnati?

Of course I do.

Am I fully prepared for the team to finish 4-12, flaming out hugely and leaving the bitter taste of defeat in our mouths yet again?

Sadly, I am.

My dad always told me to "hope for the best and prepare for the worst", and that's the advice I'd pass along to you at this point. I'm done arguing, I'm done trying to make you see reason, but I do wish you all the best for whatever your plans are this Sunday. May you enjoy the Bengals game with your closest friends and/or loved ones, and here's hoping there's still some magic left in this season.

[brandon]

where did you get your degree in psychology wyatt? i went to ohio state and made it 10 credit hours from a psychology degree but got bored so i switched to history. but thanks for the free counseling.

i showed up early in the revolution, but after showing some sort of dissonance grew tired of being berated despite my valid arguments. i only came back because kirkendall linked this article on cincy jungle and i like reading all pointsof view. it's why i read the drudge report, huffington post, 538, etc. for political discourse. so while you think i've only just shown up, i've been around.

and not just with this site. i've been around in cincinnati. i was born in 83. i remember being 5 in 88 and sitting on the couch with my dad watching the super bowl. i remember my little esiason jersey. like i remember my warrick jersey (which i still have) and all of them in between and after.

but i see some of your point of the last post. it hasn't been great, but to choose this year, with so much promise and action in the offseason as the season of rebellion? i don't get it.

and i don't get rooting for the return to the cellar. we don't ALL know it's coming. in fact some of us look at this as a turning point. did henderson move to TE? no. thus MB isn't making all the decisions. maybe he's leaving it up to his coaches a little more. did andre smith make out like a bandit in his contract? no. and despite the fact that he's not playing, we probably signed the best rookie contract the year before an uncapped year.

i have friends that are browns fans. i know firsthand their pain at losing a franchise completely. and despite the fact that i've faced 20 years of ridicule and pain at the hands of my hometown football team, i couldn't be more proud to have a hometown football team. one that has never left. one that NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, i can consistently hope for better things the next year. one that despite having one of the worst owners in history hasn't gone 0-16 (which a team with a scouting dept and GM have). at least my favorite team has made it to the superbowl. ask a cleveland fan what that's like.

but still, people root for the worst, they want the return to the cellar so they can say "i told you so." so they can profit off the loss. like i said, i've booked events, shows, and bartended. i know what people make at bar events like what is being thrown at the blackfinn. i know how anonymous paypal donations can add up. and through my love of history, i know to trust very few people who show no transparency. so i'll keep rooting for my mighty bengals of cincinnati. i'll keep defending them to the masses. i'll keep getting angry when the national media still talks negatively about us. i'll continue to be a fan until the day i die. and the people at this site can keep talking about a revolution and making money off of the fans who think something might change for the better before it gets even worse. which, in my opinion, is more naive than going to game will ever be.

[brandon]

and to make one more point i forgot. my ideal scenario is for the bengals to sell out every game for the rest of the season, make it to AT LEAST the second round of the playoffs and then for mike brown to hire a gm. that way WDR can't take ANY credit for the change. because they would have no basis for a claim on it.

i want change, i just don't think this site is going about it the right way.

[WhoDeyFans]

Wyatt, thanks for the long post saying we will agree to disagree. It is refreshing to hear that over the insults that most sling.

I will correct you on one point. I am not a troll and am not new here. I have been here from the start. I run another Bengals site and have followed WDR the whole time. I have even met WDR writers in NYC at the Blogs with balls conf.

The message behind the site is great. While I may not agree with everything, that is what makes the freedom to say what you want awesome. I am fully aware the good times could come crashing down like every other year. However, I am a homer and eternally optimistic fan and it is more fun to enjoy the winning rather than stew thinking about what is probably around the corner.

That said, enjoy the game on Sunday. If you are at Blackfinn or at Longworth or somewhere else, have a great time and WhoDey.

[Wyatt]

Brandon and WhoDeyFans,

I apologize if you feel like I was lumping you in the with the trolls - I named you two and Brian specifically because you've actually made an attempt to explain your positions and not just said "The Revolution sucks! WhoDey!" like a bunch of other people I can't be bothered to reference. To me, that's not trolling - that's having a differing opinion. I respect you guys for continuing to stick to your guns, even though I don't agree with you.

I don't have a degree in psychology from anywhere (B.A. in Political Science with a focus on International Business from Penn State) - just making semi-informed observations. And let the record state that the Bengals ARE NOT my hometown team. My grandfather moved from Columbus after World War II to work in the steel mills in western Pennsylvania, so even though I grew up in Steelers country, Sundays were spent at my grandparents' house, and that fostered my love for the Bengals. I was 8 in 1988, and I remember watching the Super Bowl with my dad and grandfather and being a huge Boomer fan as well. I also remember that being one of only three of four years that I didn't suffer near-constant ridicule for being a Bengals fan - is that something you've ever had to deal with on a prolonged basis? That's why I get defensive when people say that I'm not a "real fan". I'd love to be in a position where I could willingly buy season tickets to the Bengals' games and attend every Sunday, and financially, that's certainly not an issue. However, I don't feel compelled to willingly hand over my money to Mike Brown and encourage him to continue to produce a subpar (to my expectations) product. I did attend the game at Giants Stadium last year, and the one at Browns Stadium a couple of weeks ago, and being in and amongst other Bengals' fans was an amazing experience (although being at opponents' stadiums didn't compare to being part of the home crowd at Beaver Stadium). Also, logistically, because of my work and the travel it entails, it's a real challenge for me to attend games. But if you look at a few of my other posts, I've purposely refrained from commenting on people buying tickets because it's a personal decision and not something I, as a fan unaffected by potential blackouts, has any right commenting on. I have made comments about people coming on this site and whining about WDR calling for a boycott, but only because if you're visiting this site, you should at least realize what the purpose is and realize that complaining isn't going to change the minds of the people behind the site or the regulars here.

That said, I won't be at Blackfinn, I'll be at a place called Jerzees in Riverside (just outside NE Philadelphia), doing my best to ignore the asinine comments and dirty looks from the Eagles faithful, but I'll enjoy the game, and I'll be hoping for a win. I can't speak for everyone on this site, but I'd wager most of the guys feel the same way I do - we want the Bengals to be successful but we want some kind of structure in place to ensure that this success isn't merely temporary. And Brandon, if the Bengals made it to the AFC Championship game and/or the Super Bowl and then hired a GM (a real one, not a Mike Brown puppet like Lippincott), that wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least. I'm not here so that I can say "I told you so", I'm here because I want my favorite team to be perennial Super Bowl contenders, and with the structure that's in place within the organization right now, I just can't believe that's going to happen.

[Brandon]

Wyatt

I appreciate your respectful and intelligent response. It is something I haven't heard much of in my occasional visit to this site. Like you said, I know what this blogs purpose is and so I only stop by to keep myself informed of how they are taking to their revolution. I do want to point out one thing in your response that I found interesting though.

"only because if you're visiting this site, you should at least realize what the purpose is and realize that complaining isn't going to change the minds of the people behind the site or the regulars here"

how would this be different than the browns running of the franchise? This site tends to complain a lot, but shouldn't the founders realize who owns the bengals and that no amount of complaining is going to change their minds? Thus negating the reason for this site?

Just a thought. Anyway, I feel your distaste of the eagles faithful as i live in Philly as well. And I have also gotten almost constant battering for being a bengals fan since birth.

[BENGALZ999]

Brandon - You are dum dum head.

[Brian]

Wyatt,

You never proved or argued my points, and I would love to see the profit margin your website gains from all the venues you promote. From my point of view, you have a lot in common with Mike Brown.

1) You both profit from the losing success of the Bengals.
2) You both take capitalistic ideas, and put them forth in making money.
3) You suck and draw money from the Cincinnati area, and put them down on fraudulent concepts.
4) You both promote events to make money.
5) You may both love the Bengals, but both of your ideas will never work (although Mike Brown's latest team is winning, and your website is not).
6) You ultimate are two losing franchises.

I think it is important that you realize that you are not fooling anybody anymore, and that your website has lost it's "luster".

[Brian]

Wyatt,

I mean, your "real" message is slowly coming through on your posts. You are worried that the recent success of the Bengals will make you lose fans on your website. I mean I can tell you are really worried. So you are putting up posts saying the revolution isn't over, which it very well could be, but that's besides the point. You do not want to lose your sites flavor, and with the recent spike in Bengal wins, your AD revenue is slowly declining.

I hope you aren't living off of this website, because this season ~ your profit margin might not be completely up to what it was last year, when they were losing.

A Message to all the readers of this blog:

WhoDeyRevolution is a great company, who believes in foundational concepts of change, manipulation, and revolutionizing the way one man thinks (Mike Brown). However, as old and staggered as Mike Brown is, he probably doesn't even know how to get on the internet or check his email.

The WhoDeyRev team probably recognized this. Therefore they employed a scheme to not only make money, but also to promote their website, allow us to foolishly think they are on our team, and profit off the losing success of the Cincinnati Bengals.

Recently, the Bengals are winning. And their posts seem to become gradually like, "Okay, thats cool that they are winning, but please still support us". ~ which screams ~ "Please don't forget about our website, because our paychecks are nice"

SIDE NOTE: "Please don't forget about our website, because our paychecks are nice" ~ sounds eerily familiar to Mike Brown's twisted way of selling the Cincinnati Bengals.

In any case, support who you wish ~ but don't let propaganda fool you. These guys are making money, and they are winning ~ while they WANT you to lose...

[Wyatt]

Brian,

I'm only going to say this once, and I'm going to say it slowly - THIS. IS. NOT. MY. WEBSITE. I have nothing to do with its upkeep, content, or anything else regarding day-to-day decisions with whodeyrevolution.com. Go back to the beginning of the site and read the bylines for every article - I'm not the author of any of them. I'm merely a regular visitor and frequent provider of comments. I just so happen to be the most vocal defender of this site and its mission statement over the past few weeks since the influx of anti-WDR sentiment began. Therefore, I can't "prove or argue" your points, because I don't have intimate knowledge of the financial in-and-outs of this site, nor do I know any of its owners or writers on a personal level to provide you the information you're requesting. However, I'll do my best to argue your points from your second-most recent post:

"1) You both profit from the losing success of the Bengals."

I don't have any idea what this means - what is "losing success"? At any rate, I don't profit from the Bengals, win, lose, or draw. I'm simply a lifelong fan who'd like to see a commitment to more than just "being competitive" from the ownership of this team.

"2) You both take capitalistic ideas, and put them forth in making money."

I work as a Site Health and Safety Officer for an environmental remediation company. So yes, at the most basic level, I provide a service (some would argue a very valuable one) and I receive a wage for that. Aside from interest on a few CDs and my checking account, that is my one and only source of income. But yes, I do make money using a very basic capitalist ideal - provide a service that's in demand and receive money for it.

"3) You suck and draw money from the Cincinnati area, and put them down on fraudulent concepts."

I don't draw any money from the Cincinnati area, and will not do so, even if
my company would receive a clean-up job in Cincinnati and I wold be assigned there. In that instance, I'd actually be returning money to the Cincinnati area by dining and buying groceries from Cincinnati-area businesses.

"4) You both promote events to make money."

Again, my only source of income is my full-time job, which has nothing to do with promotion.

"5) You may both love the Bengals, but both of your ideas will never work (although Mike Brown's latest team is winning, and your website is not)."

I do love the Bengals, and maybe the idea behind this website will never work, but please, by all means, continue to disregard 18 years of history in favor of five games' success. Do I hope that this season marks the season that the Bengals turn the proverbial corner, so I can look back and tell my grandchildren I witnessed the birth of the Bengals dynasty? Of course I do - every Bengals fan does (or should). However, I'm also realistic enough to realize that this is more than likely not the case, and I refuse to hand the Brown family any more of my money until some level of sustained success is achieved. To be honest, I'll admit to not being sure of what level that will be, but I can assure that it's going to take more than five close games and four wins. I don't know if you've really read any of my posts, but I'm not the guy that's shouting from the rooftops for people to boycott tickets and merchandise. I personally have chosen to do so, but I'm not going to tell you what to do with your money.

"6) You ultimate are two losing franchises."

Again, like the first point, this one is hard to decipher what you mean, but if you're claiming that the Bengals and WDR are both losing franchises, then doesn't that more or less negate your whole "four wins is the turning point so go support the team" argument.

I hope that clears things up for you. Someone actually affiliated with this site in an ownership capacity will need to answer the rest of your questions, but I'm making an attempt to be totally transparent here, because I honestly have nothing to hide.

[Ho Chi Maier]

Anyone who thinks this site pulls in a significant amount of revenue is sorely mistaken. As someone who works in internet based marketing I feel confident saying that none of the WDR writers are buying summer homes on WDR profits. Yes, I’m sure that they do make a small amount of money, but, how much do you think flying banners costs? How about a thousand urinal cakes? what about website developers? Don't fool yourself into thinking that WDR writers want the Bengals to do bad they can reap profits. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Also, what will the WDR bandwagon do when the Bengals start winning consistently (under Mike Brown's direction)? To answer your question - HAPPILY AMDIT WE WERE COMPLETELY WRONG! Nothing on earth would make me happier than to admit I was totally wrong about Mike Brown and the Bengals front office.

To all the idiots and slave moralists who want to prove WDR wrong and think this site is doing a disservice to the Bengals, I hope you're really...REALLY patient.

[Timzilla]

I guess my question is, what result have your Anti-Brown efforts gotten? From my perspective, none, and none are forthcoming. But if you have achieved something, what is it? ... I'm open to hearing it.

[MikeBrownIsLowerThanScum]

Who dey? Da Texans.

Next up: Da Bears.

[Chris]

(crickets)

[BMN]

>>>BMN: No one is being stubborn by calling you out on >>>your ridiculous line of thinking

What "ridiculous line of thinking?" Care to address something specific in my response besides the one point about "true fans" below? My entire post was a "ridiculous line of thinking" ipso facto but you can't be bothered to address it point-by-point?

>>>There are plenty of excusable reasons
>>>why people can't attend the games.

How about this for a reason: "I don't want to go. I like aspects of the product, but there's a genuine disrespect for the customers that bothers me. So I'm not going."

That's a bad reason?

I've used this analogy several times because I believe it's apt. Mike Brown is a like an owner of a license for a chain, like let's say McDonald's. In this analogy, McDonald's is Paul Brown Stadium, the NFL is the overall chain.

Now let's say I *love* McDonald's like I love the NFL, I love it more than OchoCinco on his jonezingist day. I go to the Mike Brown owned McDonald's to get my fix. I only go there because it's the only McDonald's in my town. But the service is $#!++y and slow, some of the menu items that other McDonald's in the country offer are missing and (and here's the most important thing) everytime I bring this up to the owner, he ignores me and insists that his methods of running his McDonald's work just as well as anywhere else. If I'm really forceful with my complaints, he'll use the one time out of 100 where I got good service as an excuse that "everything's fine."

You know what I'd do? I'd say "f*** you, I love McDonald's food but I'm not going to like it anymore if I'm in the same store that you run. It will drain me of the love of it. I'll eat it on roadtrips, I'll stock up for the way back, but screw you Mike Brown, if I spend another five minutes in your restaurant, it will turn something I love into something I hate."

If you still enjoy going to Bengals' games...well, power to you. But what WDR has identified, I think quite rightly, is that there are a number of people ADDICTED to going to the games but who don't really enjoy it. They're craving their next "fix" of NFL action but when they return from the games, they complain about the same $#!++!ness of the franchise and the same $#!++!ness of the experience. Yet they return. If that's not addiction, I don't know what is. WDR is speaking to those people, not you. If you're really enjoying the Mike Brown show enough to pay good dollar for it in person, then by all means indulge. But if you're one of the people who chides WDR and its ilk as negative profiteering naysayers...then b!+ches about how much the Bengals' inepititude cheeses you off? Expect no sympathy from me.

Another point you make that fails to resonate. You accuse the owners of this site (though you clearly have no clue who they are) of operating this site solely for a profit, thereby making them no better than Mike Brown. Guess what, Noam Chomsky, I DON'T REALLY CARE! In fact, for the entertainment that WDR provides me, if they make a buck or two off me, fine! Some things on the website don't connect with me, but a lot of it does and is very clever and I agree with the overarching message...last I checked, that's something worthy of a little bit of profit. Although, as cited above, if you did a thimble of research on what WDR has put out vs. what it takes in...where the hell would the profit be? Tell me.

>>>what result have your Anti-Brown efforts gotten? >>>From my perspective, none, and none are forthcoming.

I think this argument sounds logical at first but when you look past the "official mission" of WDR, what you really see is a consumer advocate site (strangely enough). And cheesy as it sounds, if one consumer who was wasting precious money on an experience that they disliked because of a franchisee that disrespects their business, than this site has done a bang-up job. Your argument is like saying "we can't save anyone so let's save no one."

And finally,

>>>"it's not the first time i've heard someone
>>>say they are rooting for the bengals to lose. >>>because their ultimate goal is to be right."

It's true that some people on WDR root for the Bengals to lose, but I'd say it's the vast minority. Even still, it's not even that these people don't want the Bengals to win IN THE LONG RUN. Those people are the quintessential Leninists of sports fans: they don't think anything will improve until it gets worse and worse and worse and worse to the point of sparking fan outrage that will thus spark change. (Not saying I agree with that, but I think that's what they think).

Myself? Do I *root* for the Bengals to lose? Hell no. Do I *expect* it? Often. Do I take pleasure in being right? Absolutely not. Take last week's game against Baltimore...totally expected them to lose. I was wrong, wrong, wrong. But I was happy, happy, happy. Yesterday's game, not happy with the result even though I was bang-on about it.

If anything, I think it's *your* ilk that's dying to be *right*...and they see going to the games as some assertion that they are "more right" than WDR supporters. "You gave up on the team, but I kept going to the games and they won, so I was right!"

The whole "wanting to be right" strikes me as silly regardless of what side of the argument you're on. That only works if you're gambling or playing fantasy football. If I predict my cancer is inoperable and then it is, I would suddenly brag about it? I mean, really.......

BMN